Catholic Church vs. Modern Religion Scientology

The source article at Livenews given at the bottom of this ‘review# is an April Fools Day pisstake, written by a longtime critic of Scientology.

Guess the Scientologist who wrote this just didn’t get the joke… sad.

The beliefs aren’t the problem. The practices are. When Catholic Bishops were molesting kids they were protested, and the church absolutely did NOT attack the people who were outraged over it.

Scientology repeatedly abuses it’s members, especially the kids who grow up in Scientology. Sexual and Physical abuse is not uncommon. They split families apart if they feel family members have more control over their members than the Church has over them.

The families need to be Reconnected,
Read some of their stories at http://www.exscientologykids.org

I did choose the Catholic Church when I turned 30, after three decades of involvement in various Christian denominations. Initially was impressed with the historicity and tradition … but I stayed for the sacraments. First as a single woman, and ultimately a married mother of two, I came to realize how much I needed those graces in my life. It’s a decision I’ve never regretted.

I don’t know much about Scientology, and so won’t spread my ignorance here. I will say that I found my place in the Church in much the same way you describe here … by becoming a part of a local community, and investing myself there. If all you do is slip in and out of Mass, it is easy to get lost. Life is about relationships.

You can read more about my conversion story here.

As an adoptive mother of two, I’ve experienced a renewed appreciation for the spiritual motherhood of the Blessed Mother as well. I write about that in my book “Behold Your Mother” and related blog here.

Scientology is most assuredly a dangerous cult and a vicious multinational corporation. Don’t be fooled by their smooth talk and slick presentation. For true and accurate info about Scientology, please visit this site: http://www.youfoundthecard.com

Scientology is easy to figure out. Look at the guy who made it up. He was a dirt-bag who couldn’t hold his own families together. One kid killed himself. One wife went to jail. Another kid hated him. The dirt-bag died crazy, scared of germs, all drugged up. That’s L Ron Hubbard.

I wouldn’t touch his “modern religion”

Scientology (scientology.org) is all denominational. It does not dictate how to view / pray / have a personal relationship with God.

It focuses on the fact that a person is an immortal spiritual being. With this heightened sense of spiritual awareness, a person’s personal religion or spiritual path (whatever it is) is enhanced.

All religions have one truth in common: A person is an immortal spiritual being and the body is only a vessel.

Scientology does not teach a person how to pray because Scientology’s God is MONEY. The Scientologist instead shows his devotion to God by giving all of his or her money to Scientology. That is how worship happens in Scientology: Paying fixed donations to go up the Bridge. BTW, Mr. Lightfield, why is all of the mass of agreement with the critics?

How can Scientology really be a religion if it doesn’t have an icon? This is something that really confuses me…
Also, this article is rather poorly written. You could at least substantiate your claims, and cite more sources, and so on.

Mr. Lightfield: Your assessment of the commonalities of all religion is not entirely correct. While the first part is true — man is an intrinsically spiritual being — the second is not. According to classic Christian theology, human beings are a body-soul composite. This is how we differ substantively from the angels on one hand, and animals on the other. (While animals have a sensible soul, only humans have a rational soul.)

This principle is at the heart of Catholic teaching in particular. Man is made in the image of God — and God reveals Himself to man through the sensory world. That is why the Incarnation was a necessary part of redemption.

I was a Scientology staff training supervisor, and other positions, on staff myself, in the Scienotlogy movement, from 1975 until 2003, when I quit. I think the people who are on staff in Scientology trying to make the Scientology/Hubbard system work, provide the main goodness that one gets from Scientology. I found, after years of working and contemplating all the “results” (which frankly are NOT forthcoming, in the end) disappointing. Scientology/Hubbard profess to make super-people out of people, releasing people of all the mental and spiritual restraints allowing one to suppsosedly rise to pure spirit status, so one as a pure spirit can operate free of one’s body, etc. It doesn’t happen. People do NOT become pure spirits able to operate freely, move about, “soul travel” (Scientology/Hubbard call it “exteriorization”). Instead one finds layers and layers of built up rules and penalties, quite cult like, in the final analysis, in my opinion.
There is much leading through the nose with the high sounding platitudes and “wisdom” of Hubbard/Scientology, but there is NO spiritual pot of gold for MOST Scientologists, but a rather disappointing mindset, top members are heavily penalized for speaking freely publicly even about Scientology’s “body thetans” (detached souls of dead humanoids/aliens, the “body thetans” attach to every one of us on earth today, to the tune of tens of thousands of “body thetans” affixed unknowingly to ALL of us until we complete Scientology/s/Hubbard’s highest spiritual procedures called “OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7″ which are detailed spiritual procedures that take years to rise to qualify to engage in, and thousands of dollars of “fixed donations” in the church’s remunerative donation system, known commonly as “pay as you go” donation system). No, in my opinion follow Hubbard’s advice, and if you plan to quit, to “….quit fast….”, this is what Hubbard said as a challenge to people who might not be really serious about getting on board and sticking with Scientology. Get into Scientology and you will see for yourself, probably too late, that Scientology does NOT deliver the goods. It delivers on a sociological/psychological level some satisfaction, based on whichever good group of people you encounter in whichever Scientology church you flounder about in for a while. Good people stuck in L. Ron Hubbard’s galactic level science fictionesque quasi-therapeutic new religious movement cult, selling the similar spiritual “nirvana” “exteriorization” “soul travel” stuff that other spiritual/mystical/religious groups have sold all throughout human history. Quit fast, is one Hubbard statement I agree with! – Chuck Beatty
ex Scientology staffer (1975-2003)
412-260-1170 Pittsburgh, USA (anyone call me anytime!)
http://www.freewebs.com/chuckbeatty77/
http://tinyurl.com/295khy
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05205/542899.stm
http://tinyurl.com/38ptz8 buffalo video
http://tinyurl.com/ywhgaf buffalo poster

Actually, scientology is a bait and switch outfit. It starts as a self-help theory (what other religion tries to hook people in with personality/IQ tests?), then it moves into amateur unlicensed psychotherapy (for above-professional prices), then you find out about the whole dead-alien-soul bit and how all other religions are mental “implants” created to control/suppress humanity.

Google “R6 Implant” and “Hubbard “everyman”" for some interesting info.

As far as christianity goes, my various pastor/father/ministers have always told me that the only way to grow in the faith is to do good works, follow Christ, and read the bible. Clearing myself of engrams or body thetans never really came up…and they’d definitely object to the notion that Jesus was just a mass-hallucination.

Scientology may be “compatible” (as in, not attempting to override beliefs) with other religions at the lowest levels of its MLM structure, but once it moves past the “if you can think it, you can do it” self-help phase, it becomes decidedly antithetical to them.

Fortunately, one doesn’t have to rely on conspiracy theory websites to learn about Scientology – one can read L. Ron Hubbard’s books for themselves and leave both the proseltyzing of the Church and the lies and attacks of bigots out of the equation entirely.

I have read most of the Scientology books, and I like what I’ve read. No amount of exagerrated bad-news stories and sociopathic internet-hackers can change that.

I was a Scientology staff training supervisor, and other positions, on staff myself, in the Scienotlogy movement, from 1975 until 2003, when I quit. I think the people who are on staff in Scientology trying to make the Scientology/Hubbard system work, provide the main goodness that one gets from Scientology. I found, after years of working and contemplating all the “results” (which frankly are NOT forthcoming, in the end) disappointing. Scientology/Hubbard profess to make super-people out of people, releasing people of all the mental and spiritual restraints allowing one to suppsosedly rise to pure spirit status, so one as a pure spirit can operate free of one’s body, etc. It doesn’t happen. People do NOT become pure spirits able to operate freely, move about, “soul travel” (Scientology/Hubbard call it “exteriorization”). Instead one finds layers and layers of built up rules and penalties, quite cult like, in the final analysis, in my opinion.
There is much leading through the nose with the high sounding platitudes and “wisdom” of Hubbard/Scientology, but there is NO spiritual pot of gold for MOST Scientologists, but a rather disappointing mindset, top members are heavily penalized for speaking freely publicly even about Scientology’s “body thetans” (detached souls of dead humanoids/aliens, the “body thetans” attach to every one of us on earth today, to the tune of tens of thousands of “body thetans” affixed unknowingly to ALL of us until we complete Scientology/s/Hubbard’s highest spiritual procedures called “OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7″ which are detailed spiritual procedures that take years to rise to qualify to engage in, and thousands of dollars of “fixed donations” in the church’s remunerative donation system, known commonly as “pay as you go” donation system). No, in my opinion follow Hubbard’s advice, and if you plan to quit, to “….quit fast….”, this is what Hubbard said as a challenge to people who might not be really serious about getting on board and sticking with Scientology. Get into Scientology and you will see for yourself, probably too late, that Scientology does NOT deliver the goods. It delivers on a sociological/psychological level some satisfaction, based on whichever good group of people you encounter in whichever Scientology church you flounder about in for a while. Good people stuck in L. Ron Hubbard’s galactic level science fictionesque megalomaniac quasi-therapeutic new religious movement cult, selling the similar spiritual pure spirit “soul travel” stuff that other spiritual/mystical/religious groups have sold all throughout human history. Quit fast, is one Hubbard statement I agree with! – Chuck Beatty
ex Scientology staffer (1975-2003)
412-260-1170 Pittsburgh, USA (anyone call me anytime!)
http://www.freewebs.com/chuckbeatty77/
http://tinyurl.com/295khy
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05205/542899.stm
http://tinyurl.com/38ptz8 buffalo video
http://tinyurl.com/ywhgaf buffalo poster

The difference is that I can disagree with my church. $cientologists can’t.

The difference is that I can go to church and get spiritual freedom without being forced to pay. $cientologists can’t.

The difference is I can associate with people antagonistic towards my religion. $cientologists can’t.

The difference is that I can confess my sins without them being written in a file and possibly used against me. $cientologists can’t.

The difference is I can learn my religion without a dictionary. $cientologists can’t.

Scientology is not a religion. We need to stop calling it that. At best, it’s a corporation that sells self-help books and courses ( think Amyway for the mind ). At worst, it’s a well organized crime syndicate that uses lies and deceit to gain world domination.

A choice between the Catholic church & that of Scientology is very limited & narrow.
Taking though such limited view despite many bad things in the past of the Catholic church its deeds for the good have reached a greater volume of disadvantaged & underprivileged people than Scientology.
Scientology appeals to those who can afford how it sells its supposed spiritual freedom.
Most people cannot afford Scientology, a supposed religion that appeals to a few with money.

A few more:

The difference is that I can talk to my wife about my belief and what I have learned. $cientologists can’t.

The difference is that I can join my church with out having to sign a contract or legal papers saying I won’t sue the church. $cientologists can’t.

So many liars here, determined to try to smear Scientologists. I challenge anyone to actually visit a Church of Scientology and see for themselves.

Chuck Beatty,

I have often seen critics make claims about church management (highly dubious in their own right). However, I am afraid the flavor of your attack upon the philosophy itself tells me you completely “missed the boat” when your were a Sceintologist.

I too have been on staff and have been a paritioner for several years. Those Scientologists with good intentions have done very well with the philosophy and have found incalcuable benefit.

You say that Scientology does not deliver the goods. Maybe it didn’t for you. However for 98% of the people involved it has. I can personally attest to the fact that I am much more causitive, happy, ethical, self-assured and finanically successful because of it.

When I joined Scientology I didn’t have a job, I was disaffected to my own family and very withdrawn in many respects. I went on to run three successful businesses which have made more that a million dollars per year. I am an active volunteer in cub scouts working with Scientologists and Non Scientologists alike. I have a definte positive outlook on the future depsite the trouble our society is facing. I am one of those guys that gets the ball rolling when I see others around me doing nothing, or even worse sitting there whining and complaining about all the bad stuff and basically getting in the way of those who endeavor to improve things.

I have often mentioned the dubious nature of the testimony of apostates like yourself. I have seen several posts by you and it seems that you have some type of personal axe to grind. Well, I think it becomes evident to many others that we cannot considered your testimony unbiased as neither is mine. My suggestion for others would be to discount both and find out for themselves. Also when I mention finding out form themselves I am not talking about reasearching critic web sites which are full of mockery, opinion and testimony of those like yourself with personal agendas. I mean go to the source, Scientolgy itself. If one chooses to not do this that is fine. However he cannot offer comment on what it is because he knows not. This would be similar to my inability to offer to much comment on any other religion because I have not spent much time in any other.

Anonymause,

You ask how can Scientology be a religion without an icon. I would like to take this up with you.

First off everyone has a different concept of religion and it’s practice. There is the Judeo-Christian religions who believe in one god and the religion focuses on the teachings of the word of god. Then you have multiple god religions like Hinduism. Then you have pagan religions like those of the Amercian Indian. Then you have religions that do not discuss the factor of god but still work with the spiritual nature of man as in Buddhism.

Scientology works along the lines of Buddhism in that it deals with the spirtual nature of you vs the spirtual concept and impact of god. Scientology does not, not acknowledge the factor and implication of god. You can see Hubbards take on this by reading Science of Survival where he discusses the vital role of religion and man’s aspirations towards a supreme being. It is simply an areas that is left up to each individual according to his beliefs.

Their is a misconception about Scientology as a thing that interfers with or cuts across other religions because it is of itself a religion.

You can be both a Scientologist, which enters the realm of the mind and you as a spirit, and follow the doctrine of another religion as in Christianity. Christians believe that god does not want you to follow false gods, idols or prophets (1. a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration. dictionary.com)

Hubbard is not a prophet nor a god nor an idol. He is a man. Because their is truth in man being a spiritual entity allows man himself to find answers about this sometimes confusing area.

If man can find answers about the mind, why can he not also find answers about the human soul. The mystery and confusion that surrounds the concept of the human soul often makes people believe that it is some type of unknowable object, and nothing can be known about it simply from the concept that it can’t be seen.

If you only read two books, Dianetics and Science of Survival you can see Hubbards path. One that went from just researching the mind to entering into the area of the human soul. It was a natural progression because man is a spiritual being not just a body. A spiritual being is as real as the sun, a cup of Starbuck coffee, a mortgage or a Honda Civic.

Hubbard nor Scientologists believe him to be any type of god or prophet. He is an individual who carried out innumerous researches into previously unanswered areas. Very much a scientific approach as in finding out about electricity except in areas steeped with false ideas, preconceived unworkable notions, mysticism, heavy turmoil and more. Again, if your read and understand some basic books as the two I mentioned above and a couple others like Problems of Work and Scientology The Fundamentals of Thought, you will know exactly what it is I am talking about.

You can also go online to:

http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/

Here you will find some basic Scientology concepts that sprung from Hubbard’s research into the mind and soul.

It appears that my decision to re-evaluate my so-called “church” and its activities is now being surpressed. Despite the confusion, I will continue to speak out for the truth.

Recently I have made a serious, life changing decision. It all began when I visited some of the websites for ex-scientologists, with every intention to bring what I thought was the truth about Scientology to these “ignorant” critics. Then I read about a very specific incident of abuse by a high level staff member that I had actually witnessed myself. I am ashamed to admit that I had dismissed this abuse from my mind just as I had dismissed so much of the data the critic movement has been trying to publicize. However, after confronting story after story of violence, deceit, and humiliation, soon it became clear to me that what I thought were just isolated incidents were actually a pattern of abuse and corruption that lead all the way to the top (and you know who I mean.) The testimonies of many former staff and public members paint a clear and undeniable picture of a self-destructive organization feeding upon itself to survive.

Thus it is that I am no longer acting as a Scientology apologist. Obviously the OSA will attempt to dead agent me by making false posts in my name here and elsewhere. That is to be expected, as we all know there are a handful of OSA posting furiously all over the internet under many names, and apparently they’ve now added my moniker to their stable.

So be it, I will not be silenced by their mocking or ridicule. The crimes of the leadership of Scientology are far too serious and widespread to be covered up now, and in fact I am aware of ongoing investigations by federal entities. While it is not yet time for me to go public with all I know, that time is fast approaching.

Look for me at the ex scientologist message board: http://www.forum.exscn.net

bgodley, with eyes wide open, thanks to anonymous

Saying “Go to a Church of Scientology to find out about it.” is like saying “That man over there who has worked with lions for decades says that lions will rip your arm off if they get angry, but you can’t believe what he says. If you want to learn about lions for yourself, go visit a lion den.”

Nobody is attacking your religion and your philosophies. While the beliefs of Scientology may work in principle, they do not work under direction of the RTC, which is obsessed with furthering their own personal agendas of more power and more money.

I know that bgodley, James Lightfield, Terryeo, Curiouser, Noanon, and maybe this new Janelle girl are all Scientologists who are paid or given auditing credits for trying to protect the Church’s reputation online, but I’m trying to help you guys here. If you want to protect your religion, then address the grievances that people have aired against it. No changes for the better have ever occurred from people denying problems and focusing on other things.

I’m sure that even if you are a die-hard member of scientology, if you are a decent human being you will know that what the RTC is doing is wrong. You will know that they should not keep a detailed record of all your confessions to use against you if you speak out against the church. You should know that they should not make members pay fixed donations to proceed farther up the rungs of the church, only to tell them that they still have too many engrams to reach the next step, and to suddenly “realize that the texts have been miswritten” and make you take the same courses over again.

You should realize that having their own private labor camps, the Rehabilitation Project Force, is not right, and that members should be allowed to interpret the meaning of Hubbard’s work for themselves, not be hounded for thinking something different. You should know that a religious body should not FORCE members to drop contact with family members and friends not in the church.

I know that you are in scientology because you want to better yourself and you want to make the world a better place, but there are OTHER ways to do that, ways that are not run by a small group of individuals whose own greed comes before the helping of others.

Janelle, I visited one about a year ago and that is the very reason I side with Anonymous.

bgodly, you still manage to say a whole lot of nothing. If you want to be a good writer, you have to learn to pack each sentence with actual meaning and discard anything that is redundant or not vital to the story or message.

Now, I have read Dianetics and some of the other material recommended by Scientologists, and although there are some interesting insights and ideas, none of it justifies the abuses of the CoS.

Anonymous takes issue with the abuses, not the belief, bgodly. Quit trying to divert people’s attention to something that isn’t even the issue.

The Freezone practices Scientology and Anonymous has NO problem with the Freezone

I feel quite strongly that the sinister reputation of “Church” of Scientology is absolutely detrimental to any of the positive contributions that Scientology itself may offer.

Correction:
bgodly, I meant “effective” writer, “good” is entirely subjective.

Scientologists are, to quote Cruise, “The authorities on the mind.”

Bold statement. Any backup to that? Oh, right–the extensive research done by Hubbard.

Scientology is ACTIVELY seeking to DESTROY psychology and psychiatry because they believe that their ‘authority’ status on matters of the mind and medicine means that there are no other valid paths. I will admit that these sciences are less fully-understood by doctors, but the understanding is growing daily, as the practice evolves and learns daily.

Scientology’s data is utterly static: Hubbard was “Source” and altering or building on his work is “squirreling”–blasphemy.

Their own beliefs are fine; I don’t care if they think hooking themselves up to electrodes and yelling at ashtrays will make them better. That’s their own business and freedom.

I DO care that they actively lobby and seek to deprive ME of my right to treatment by mental health professionals.

I’d consider Scientology treatment…if there were third party double-blind studies conducted on the efficacy of it. There aren’t. Nor, I expect, will there be one–and by “third party” I don’t mean “by another scientology front group” like CCHR, ABLE, Narconon, etc.

So basically, the only reassurances that the methods that the CoS seeks to replace modern professional mental health care actually work, are the books we have to pay for, the word of scientology staffers who get commission for the book sales…and that’s it. No notes, no research papers, no peer reviewed studies, no FDA/APA/other licensed medical professional board approval, zero independent verification.

The Freedoms of Speech, Religion, and Expression are core to the values of the United States–and most other free cultures. They all have a limitation though, and I can sum it up like this:
“The right to swing my fist stops at the tip of the other man’s nose.”

Quit hitting other people’s noses, CoS, and I’ll stop (actively) exposing your lies.

First off let me apologize for my typos and mistakes in my earlier post – their, there thing pretty silly really.

Suz,

You say I say a whole lot of nothing. Well, you most certainly have a right to your opinion. I guess you find the whole religion, spiritual topic to be dull. We will just have to leave it up to others to see how much “nothing” there is in my communication.

In addition, I do not profess to be a good writer, I only communicate as I feel.

I took issue with the philosophy aspect because that is what Chuck Beatty did in his post. I guess you missed that.

This all proves the contradiction among critics, anonymous etc. Often you say one thing but do another.

I personally believe it is in an effort to have your actions, statements appear as benign or benevolent as possible while at the same time trying to incite as much antagonism towards the church as you can.

Qoute: “James Lightfield – Scientology is all denominational. It does not dictate how to view / pray / have a personal relationship with God.”

Its funny you would say that… then 10 years later when the person reaches OT-8, you tell them that Jesus was a pedophile. Way to go.

Maybe you do that to confuse them some more so they can pay for more auditing.

Charles Manson was a Scientologist.

Manson took 150 hours of auditing. Co$ taught him to “Be Godly”. Manson claimed, he completed all courses from 64′ to 68′while in jail & was theta clear. He visited the celebrity center in Hollywood and purchased books and a Emeter. Then he left the church and took his newly twisted reality and a Emeter to go create his own flock. When they caught these brainwashed hippies, Manson had Co$ books and a Emeter at the Death Valley ranch.

Makes since. Hang out with the crooks to learn how to be crooked. How many other dangerous people did scientology create and unleash on the world?

Rick A,

You bring up a good point in the Church’s attitude towards psychiatry.

Scientologists hold that psychiatry is not a real science. Usually baseless, useless and often destructive.

There are many reasons for this. You can visit

http://www.cchr.org

for more information.

I will tell you that chief among the reasons is the harm that is actually done in the name of help. We can see the evidence of this. The kids put on meds who commit suicide or commit homicide as in all those school shootings. The individuals who found not only no help from their counseling but trouble.

I can recall a time when my mother took my family when I was young to a family therapist after my dad died because we had some strife in the family. In that session the therapist had my mother in tears because she was being blamed for stuff that I later realized I and my brothers were responsible for.

This person didn’t have a clue about what they were doing. That person was GUESSING. He had years of “training” and it amounted to a best guess scenario.

I would wager you a thousand bucks that if I took someone into 3 seperate psychiatric offices for some type of complaint I would get 3 different diagnosis. The main reason is that mental diseases are voted upon my a majority at the APA meetings. That is how they get indoctrinated into our society. There is not one single medical test for mental illness or insanity.

At the 2005 and 2006 APA conventions, psychiatrists admitted on video that they did not know what causes mental illnes or how to cure it. The chemical imbalance theory is exactly that a theory.

What we are often fed with is “studies suggest” , “experts think” generalities but no proof. We are offered “treatment” but no cures. We are told that “advances are being made”, “insights are being developed” etc.
But no forward motion only PR statements.

Vitamin C can cure Scurvy. All real medical doctors can fix a broken arm with near 100% effectiveness. However, psychiatry offers us nothing even close to the workabilty of those medical sciences.

With as much money and time that the field has been given we should have seen a reduction in depression not a rise. We should have seen real world results not more reasons why we need to keep feeding the machine.

With all the kids put on psych meds in school, we should have seen a reduction in school violence not an increase. If the counseling worked we should have seen a reduction in the need and use of meds not an increase. On and on.

The biggest problem that faces us is not our ability to put time and attention on a problem, it is finding out what the problem is and confronting what does and doesn’t work.

There are double blind studies coming out now that show that meds are ineffective and often make things worse.

I mean for goodness sake it took groups like Scientology sponsered CCHR to get black box labeling on drugs that are known to have side effects of suicide. Again, SUICIDE, not dry mouth, not nausea, SUICIDE.

I could go on and on. You suggest Scientology is preventing people from getting the help of psychiatric counseling and drugging. I agree with you, this is very true. However, our contention though is that it is a good thing.

bgodly, again “good” is subjective. I am not one to judge whether you are any “good” at it, just whether you are being effective in your communication. People can learn about the philosophy on scientology website, in fact, I encourage it. That is where I feel that your arguments on the topic tend to be redundant.

Mr. Beatty is expressing his own experience with the belief system, and you are expressing your own experience with it, and that is subjective.

I still think you are trying to divert attention away from the real issues. People ask specific questions and making comments that are not a matter of subjectiveness, yet you go on and on about the philosophy of the religion and ignore valid concerns.

Also, who cares about typos as long as you get your point across.
I can haz spel chek?

To the red bgodley post.

I find it pretty funny that you are still pretending to me as a Scientologist turned non-Scientologist. I see you are still up to some of your old tricks.

I think it shows everyone else exactly what type of person we are often dealing with in this anti-scientology community. I think your underhanded actions only act to prove my contentions.

Secondly, to Sue.

You keep mentioning I am diverting. I am not. The problem with your assertions is that you are asking me to prove The Church is not criminal. This is hard to due only in that it is hard to prove that someone is, not anything. I call it trying to prove a non-negative.

I could easily say to you, “prove to me right now that you are not a thief.” You couldn’t do it. You could bring out a laundry list of things saying that my accusations are unfounded, you could show all the good things you do, you could tell me all about the things you didn’t steal but in the end I could just sit back and say, “well that still doesn’t prove you are not a thief or haven’t ever stolen anything.”

That is why the burden of proof of a claim is always on the accuser. You must prove you accusations of criminal behavior. The problem is you can’t. Often critics refer to anti-Scientology websites as “evidence” or “research” or “proof”. However, these sites contain 99% opinion including testimony of some highly suspicious characters.

There is only one known case where a few Scientology staff were ever convicted of a crime and in that case, over 30 years ago, the bulk of Scientologists including Hubbard, didn’t know what they were up to. This fact being confirmed by the actual prosecutor in the case. That group WAS unethical, they DID do bad things but they were summarily kicked out for this behavior.

Possibly it is from this case that others developed some suspicion of other bad activity of the church. However, any of these accusations or inuendos would fall under the heading of conjecture.

The rest of this stuff is all hypothesis and fantasy. Even some of the few ex-Scientologists who cry up a storm about how bad they were treated have never brought a criminal charge against the church. NOT A SINGLE ONE!!!

The only reasons for this would be that either they couldn’t because there was no criminal activity in the first place or that no district attorney would file the case. Either way it makes these claims, highly, highly suspicious too.

It’s already been proven. Repeatedly. In many courts.

Judicial statements regarding the Nature of Scientology

“Scientology is evil; its techniques are evil; its practice is a serious threat to the community, medically, morally, and socially; and its adherents are sadly deluded and often mentally ill… (Scientology is) the world’s largest organization of unqualified persons engaged in the practice of dangerous techniques which masquerade as mental therapy.”
–Justice Anderson, Supreme Court of Victoria, Australia

“The government is satisfied that Scientology is socially harmful. It alienates members of families from each other and attributes squalid and disgraceful motives to all who oppose it; its authoritarian principles and practice are a potential menace to the personality and well being of those so deluded as to become followers; above all, its methods can be a serious danger to the health of those who submit to them… There is no power under existing law to prohibit the practice of Scientology; but the government has concluded that it is so objectionable that it would be right to take all steps within its power to curb its growth.”
–Kenneth Robinson, British Minister of Health

“The crime committed by these defendants is of a breadth and scope previously unheard of. No building, office, desk, or file was safe from their snooping and prying. No individual or organization was free from their despicable conspiratorial minds. The tools of their trade were miniature transmitters, lock picks, secret codes, forged credentials and any other device they found necessary to carry out their conspiratorial schemes.”
–Federal prosecutor’s memorandum to the judge urging stiff jail sentences for 9 top leaders of Scientology who had pleaded guilty to criminal charges

“Scientology is both immoral and socially obnoxious…It is corrupt sinister and dangerous. It is corrupt because it is based on lies and deceit and has its real objective money and power for Mr. Hubbard… It is sinister because it indulges in infamous practices both to its adherents who do not toe the line unquestionly and to those who criticize it or oppose it. It is dangerous because it is out to capture people and to indoctrinate and brainwash them so they become the unquestioning captives and tools of the cult, withdrawn from ordinary thought, living, and relationships with others.”
–Justice Latey, ruling in the High Court of London

“[The court record is] replete with evidence [that Scientology] is nothing in reality but a vast enterprise to extract the maximum amount of money from its adepts by pseudo scientific theories… and to exercise a kind of blackmail against persons who do not wish to continue with their sect…. The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder, L.Ron Hubbard.”
–Judge Breckenridge, Los Angeles Superior Court

“In addition to violating and abusing its own members’ civil rights, the organization over the years with its ‘fair game’ doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in the church whom it perceives as enemies.”
–Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Paul Breckenridge, June 1984, in the Gerry Armstrong case

“In January 1980, fearing a raid by law enforcement agencies, Hubbard’s representatives ordered the shredding of all documents showing that Hubbard controlled Scientology organizations, finances, personnel, or the property at Gilman Hot Springs. In a two week period, approximately one million pages were shredded pursuant to this order.”
–California appellate court, 2nd. district, 3rd. division, July 29, 1991, B025920 & B038975, Super. Ct. No. C 420153

“It is common knowledge among senior executives of the organization and it is the policy of CSC that members of the Boards of Directors are mere figureheads, without authority or control, not for internal corporate reasons, but rather to vest control in Mr. Hubbard. I have personal knowledge that in order to carry out this corporate fraud, organizational executives have engaged in the various unethical practices including backdating phony Board minutes and forging signatures.”
–Affidavit of Gerry Armstrong , former member

“When a person is subjected to coercive persuasion [as in Scientology] without his knowledge or consent …[he may] develop serious and sometimes irreversible physical and psychiatric disorders, up to and including schizophrenia, self-mutilation, and suicide.”
–California Supreme Court, United States v. Lee [455 U.S. 252,257,258 (1982)]

“Substantial evidence supports the conclusion Scientology leaders made the deliberate decision to ruin Wollersheim economically and possible psychologically….We do not mean to suggest Scientology’s retributive program… represented a full scale modern day ‘inquisition.’ Nevertheless there are some parallels in purpose and effect. ‘Fair game,’ like the ‘inquisition,’ targeted heretics. “Other testimony established Scientology is a hierarchal organization which exhibits near paranoid attitudes toward certain institutions and individuals — in particular the government, mental health professions, disaffected members, and others who criticize the organization or its leadership… During trial, Wollersheim’s experts testified Scientology’s ‘auditing’ and ‘disconnect’ practices constituted ‘brainwashing’ and ‘thought reform’ akin to what the Chinese and North Koreans practiced on American prisoners of war… “Using its position as religious leader, the church and its agents coerced Wollersheim into continuing auditing even though his sanity was repeatedly threatened by this practice… Thus there is adequate proof the religious practice in this instance caused real harm to the individual and the appellant’s outrageous conduct caused that harm…

Church practices conducted in a coercive environment are not qualified to be voluntary religious practices entitled to first amendment religious freedom guarantees… “We hold that the state has a compelling interest in allowing its citizens to recover for serious emotional injuries they suffer through religious practices they are coerced into accepting. Such conduct is too outrageous to be protected under the constitution and too unworthy to be privileged under the law of torts.”
-California appellate court, 2nd district, 7th division, Wollersheim v. Church of Scientology of California, Civ. No. B023193 Cal. Super. (1986)

I have now heard two distinct versions of this Charles Manson story. The other one actually gave a reference at lermanet.com and described how Charles and some guy in the joint claimed they did 100s of hours of auditing and when he got out showed up at Celibrity Center and was promptly sent to ethics as a type III (essentially psychotic). I suppose this was supposed to discredit Scientology somehow. My question is, Did anyone ever consider the possibility that Manson simply made up this story of hundreds of hours of auditing in jail to impress the church members. Crazy people make stuff up all the time. You don’t have to go far to find an example.

I suppose if there was an example of someone who should have been forced into psychiatric care it would have been Charles Manson. (And before I begin note that I am not this time time responding to someone who has labled themselves as Anonymous.) It however concerns me that we so easily give up our freedoms and not just the ones which Anonymous can enjoy because they are anonymous. This is one reason why I am very much in support of efforts to prevent laws being put in place that would enable people being subjectively labeled as psychotic and have all of their rights and liberties stripped away where supposedly the actual issue is that people are not so easily able to get the mental treatment which they believe they are entitled too. It turns out that anyone can give their uninformed consent for such treatment which can not only include the chemical lobotomy known as psychotropics (google “psychiatry psychotropics lobotomies”), but psychosurgery (a more advanced and sophisticated version of the prefrontal lobotomy) or even ECT (Electro-Convulsive-Therapy) which is basically getting a lobotomy by electrocution of the brain. What is actually being proposed to the lawmakers is that some families have a family member who does not wish to consent to such treatment and thus requirea a court order requiring some kind of proof that the person while not having committed any felony which would get him locked up in a prison is dangerous to others. Thus our liberties go down the drain. A careful reading between the lines of such presentations reveals that most often such dangerous people only became dangerous after having been on psychotropic prescriptions (usually more than one) over some period of time and often prescribed by more than one doctor in order to calm down a little anxiety which has apparently blown up to a major case of psychotic behaviour in spite of so many different prescriptions which often develops into “Agnosognosia” which basically means they believe they are cured and don’t need the drugs anymore and then in too many cases proceed to go on a killing spree. So I wonder if we have perhaps trusted this third party the FDA which approved all of these drugs based on testing provided by the psychopharmaceuticals, just a little too much.

bgodley wrote:

“At the 2005 and 2006 APA conventions, psychiatrists admitted on video that they did not know what causes mental illnes or how to cure it. The chemical imbalance theory is exactly that a theory.”

It’s a “theory” because doctors are scientists, and use cautious language when they are unable to actually measure those things. There is not yet a way to measure the action of neurtransmitters — which have been proven to exist, but are not yet measurable in a live patient. Psychiatrists and scientists are erring on the side of caution with their language. However, decades ago it was noted that, for example, areas which had a naturally occuring source of lithium salts in the water supply had less incidence of depression and manic behavior — which led scientists to begin looking into lithium as a treatment for those who had asked for help and were experiencing difficulties, but lived in regions without naturally occurring lithium salts.

Science is observation, measurement, verification, which is why their use of language is so precise, and so reticent to make claims.

“What we are often fed with is “studies suggest” , “experts think” generalities but no proof. We are offered “treatment” but no cures. We are told that “advances are being made”, “insights are being developed” etc.
But no forward motion only PR statements.”

Again, science has not reached the point yet where uncategorical claims can be made — in part because each person’s experience of life is subjective. At least psychiatry does double-blind studies where people are randomly assigned either a placebo or the medication being studied. Then patients report how they feel, and the statisticians take the placebo effect into account.

There is no such objectivity in Scientology — it amuses me that you would say you are getting only PR spin, basically, because that is precisely what Scientology does. It pretends to be objective, science-based, but has no methodological validity, no independent verification, and nothing whatsoever to support its claims except “L. Ron said so, therefore it is true.”

bgodley also wrote:
“I could go on and on. You suggest Scientology is preventing people from getting the help of psychiatric counseling and drugging. I agree with you, this is very true. However, our contention though is that it is a good thing.”

Yes (eyes rolling), you DO go on. Scientology has NO RIGHT to prevent people from getting the help of counseling and MEDICATION. No right to foist its baseless beliefs on the rest of us. No right to interfere with the choices of others. If I believe spaghetti is poisonous, can I run around yanking it out of the hands of “unsuspecting diners”. I mean, really.

Scientologists are whining around about bigotry, completely overlooking its own obnoxiousness in trying to make choices for other people. OKAY, we get it, you don’t like psychiatry and you think it’s a sham. Great, whatever. DON’T GO TO A PSYCHIATRIST. Okay? But leave everyone else alone. By all means, express your opinion, but don’t pretend it’s based on anything but your strange and literally in-credible “religious” beliefs.

I have discovered some of these anti-Scientology people are actually anti-religion… all religion is ridiculous according to some “critics”. Scientology is perceived as an easy target because it is a minority religion and people who aren’t Scientologists won’t always come to their defense against the hate speech and discrimination.

And then there are those who are “Free Zone” Scientologists, selling “pirated” Scientology courses and conselling services illegally, without permission of the sanctioned Church – so the motive to dicredit the Official Church is to siphon off actual church parishoners for their own profit. (You know, it’s sort of like saying, “don’t pay your 10% tithe to the yucky Church, I’ll hear your confession for 5%”)

The good news is that Scientology is becoming more of a household name and it will likely attract more independent thinking people to really look for themselves. The good that real Scientology has to offer will be available for anyone who wants real results – like the Scientology drug rehabilitation program (Narconon) that has a proven success rate of something like 70% or more, and Lord x only knows we need an effective drug rehab progam around here these days!

Love to all,
Matty

It’s been years since the greatest country in the world, the U.S. of A., threw the leaders of the Scientology cult in jail. Now we have to follow the examples of second string nations like France, Belgium, Germany and our retarded younger brother, Canada. It’s a crying shame that L.Ron Hubbard had to die in hiding like some central american druglord, when he had been named an unindited co-conspirator in the largest internal espionage case in our nations history. He had to die with a shot of Visteril (an anti-psychotic) up his ass, instead of cellmate Bubba (a true psychotic) up his ass.

Libery Belle,

If psychiatry and the sister industry of psychiatrice medication is so cautious why do they not tell us the whole story behind their actions. Visit this link.

http://www.cchr.org/press_room/press_releases/American_Psychiatric_Association_Under_Fire_Again_For_Pharma_Ties.html

In addition psychiatrists have been around for almost 200 years they are no closer to coming up with a cure than when they started. Why is that?

The problem with psychiatry’s ethical stance is that even though chemical imbalance is still a theory they still use it to justify prescribing millions of potentially harmful drugs. Thus our society, including children who have no choice in the matter, become one big lab experiment.

Where was the scientific caution in regards to psychiatric theories such as ethnic cleansing? Theories such as the ones started by psychiatrists Jovan Raskovic and Radovan Karadzic, masterminds of ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia or theories promoted by psychiatrist Ernst Rudin which were used by Nazis to exterminate millions of jews, gypsies etc.

I am afraid the opposite exists, there simply hasn’t been enough caution used. Not all psychiatrists are ill intentioned. They are however complicit in their not addressing the fallacys of their own science.

One more thing.

If you believed spaghetti was poisonous, absolutely you would go and pull it off of diners plates. If you knew this to be true and you just stood there watching someone else eat it, in your particular view you would be allowing suffering.

If I then showed you proof that spaghetti was allright you should stop.

It is called responsibility.

You are in essence asking someone else to stop taking responsibility for other people. You are asking the Church to not help because it is an uncomfortable subject to you.

Well, that is not going to happen. A main tenet of Scientology is that you can only find true happiness when you take responsibility for others. In my view, the wider and more removed the people and the areas, the more fulfilled and happier you become.

Some “members” of Anonymous have told me that they are not just Anti-Scientology, they are Anti-Religion.

Anon includes a bunch of individuals who are participating for individual reasons. Some of them are internet geeks who are attacking Scientology for “fun”.

Yes, some Free Zone members have been “excommunicated” from the Official church, I agree with you. And “Free Zone” Scientologists are trying to start their own form of Scientology so if they discredit the church they can try to siphon off members for their own personal gain.

Yes, Anonymous is an open group without means of control. Again, I agree. This means that any whack job can make whatever accusation they want and spread it all over the internet and everywhere, and there is no verification of their claims.

I have been told that the Church is a murderous criminal organization and haven’t been found guilty of all of these crimes because they have infiltrated the Government. This is just a crazy assertion!

In the meantime, this “anonymous” movement creates a hostile tone toward people who choose to be members of this religion and potentially creates unfair discrimination and harrassment against Scientologists’ free practice of their religion.

All you have to do is browse the sites for such epithets as Sci-fag and other hateful sentiments toward innocent people who just want to practice their religion in peace.

Love to All,
Matty

We understand that $cientology doesn’t like psychiatry. Why would you? It’s in direct competition with $cientology for psychotherapy dollars…because as you like to say…YOU are the authorities on the mind.

$cientology’s attack on psychiatry is solely because psychiatry attacked Lafayette Hubbard for practicing medicine without a license. Lafayette Hubbard submitted his claims to the APA for research. Why would he do that if he didn’t like them?

Did you know that Hubbard himself requested psychiatric assistance from the V.A. and that Vistaril ( psych drug ) was found in Hubbard’s body at the time of his death? Interesting fact about a man that went through a “Wall of Fire”.

There’s no scientific proof that Diarrhetics works. To this day, the only proof is $cientologists saying that it does…There’s no science behind $cientology. Lafayette Ronald Hubbard turned Diarrhetics into $cientology in order to continue making money and avoid criminal charges.

Think about it.. first an article in a Sci Fi mag, then the book.. then the “religion”.

To quote Liberty Belle

“OKAY, we get it, you don’t like psychiatry and you think it’s a sham. Great, whatever. DON’T GO TO A PSYCHIATRIST….But leave everyone else alone.”

Remember the goverenment that calls your scam a religion is the same governement that calls psychiatry beneficial.

In keeping with the title of the article:

Catholic Church vs. The Corporation of $cientology

$cientology vs psychiatry is the same as the Catholic church vs Planned Parenthood ( Roe vs Wade ).

The difference is that the Catholic Church offers an option to abortion that doesn’t cost money, while $scientology doesn’t.

Also, $cientology supports abortion ( heck Lafayette Hubbard tried to perform an abortion on his own wife with a coat hanger ). Sea(sick) Org members are routinely told to get abortions if they want to remain in the Org. Now that’s an engram that you’ll surely remember in your next life!!

All thanks to Lafayette Ronald Hubbard… a great Humanitarian ( that believed in killing babies ).

$CIENTOLOGY PROFILES AND CATEGORIZES PEOPLE:

WOG- non scientologist
SP- critic who must be destroyed
PTS- any source of criticsm, or potential source.
RAW MEAT- potential scientologist, yet undoctrinated

GIVING LABELS TO PEOPLE DE-HUMANIZES THEM. It is a common NAZI TACTIC that was used on the Jewish people.

$CIENTOLOGY IS A CULT

Chuck Beatty is a sham. He was never Scientology staff.

Caution to all reading these posts. Do not buy into all that you read. Do your own research, scientology or any other organization can be misrepresented, as can anonymous. Whether it be kids prank calling or serious calls questioning scientology. Look at the blame game the COS has gotten into. You cannot believe one person who says i was a scientologist staff member and it was great. Where are the credentials?

Curiouser said

“Crazy people make stuff up all the time. You don’t have to go far to find an example.”

You sure don’t–> Lafayette Ronald Hubbard

I was a Scientologist from 1977 to 2000 and worked at the Int Base/Gold Base for over a decade and worked under David Miscavige himself. I witnessed so many attrocities at the Int Base over the years that it would fill a book however, I will mention a few things here. Firstly, noone has a problem with the “philosophies” of Hubbard wether one wants to believe them or not. Sure, people can go find out for themselves and read a book and take it or leave it. Fine. However, there are policies as written by Hubbard when applied result in the harm of others both inside and outside of Scientology. For example: Disconnection as laid out in PTS/SP tech. As the former De-PTSer and Chief Master at Arms at the Int base, I had to get others to disconnect from their families who had a problem with Scientology. This was usually in the extremes of cases, however, when someone hasn’t been able to visit their family for YEARS sometimes over a decade, family and friends will attack the source of the problem, which was the persons involvement in Scientology. There were MANY people at the Int Base who had fallen out of communication with their friends and families over the years because they were simply NOT ALLOWED to go and visit them. In order to even talk to them on the phone they had to have an approval from either myself or another Ethics Department staff member and IF approved, all phone calls were listened in on by a dual hand-set phone in order to intercept and determine wether the person making the call was a securoty threat to the Church or not. All mail coming in or going out from all staff members at the base was opened and read first before being sent out or given to the staff member. I did this myself as it was part of my duties. This was also done to ensure no security threat to Scientology. This system is in place in all Sea Org organizations in Scientology and it is this type of paranoia that spreads throughout the whole. As well, I personally witnessed the head of the Church, David Miscavige, physically beat up other staff members who were either not following his orders or were not doing their jobs up to his standards. I saw this happen on a number of occasions, one particular occasion was when he beat up Marc Yager who was another top executive within Scientology. At the Int Base there are literally prison camps for those who either want to leave or who haven’t been doing there job’s up to expectance level. Most of the top executives of Scientology’s past such as Ray Mithoff, Marc Yager, Mark Ingber, Greg Wilhere, Norman F. Starkey, etc… have all been declared Suppressive Persons and are being held prisoner in what is called the Hall for SPs at the Int Base in Hemet. Nobody on the base is allowerd to speak to them. They are being refered to as the “Base SPs” by the staff at the base. They are being held there to work on their steps to get back into good standing with the Church. You don’t have to believe me, but there are many testimonies of these things happening within Scientology. Google: RPF (Rehabilitation Project Force) for example and check it out for yourself. I’m sure that people like bgodley will call me a liar or that I’m attempting to spread false information, which is sad, because I was there to witness and experience these things and folks like bgodley have been trained on how to forward the PR lines of Scientology also termed “Shore Stories.”

Sincerely,
John Peeler
Former Scientologist and Sea Org executive

Scientology isn’t just against psychatry, they regard psychiatrists and psychologists to be terrorists and the very cause of all crime, equally reprehensible as Hitler and Stalin.

For some Hubbard quotes to exemplify the extreme hostility towards the professions see:
shttp://psychassualt.org/

Correct me if I’m wrong, and I know people will, but didn’t LRH wait until he was asked to show with scientific data that his practices were valid before he tossed in the “we’re a religion” card just to avoid that? Did they also not declare the first “clear” person in front of a live audience just to have the definition the church had given “clear” debunked by a member of the audience? If LRH’s wife was part of Operation Snow White, are you sure he had no clue what was going on? Do the celebs that are being made the face of scientology get to skip levels that everyone else is made to go through? Why is there no mention of LRH on the new scientology videos? Is LRH still attributed with the title “Souce” thus making him a diety of sorts in the “faith”, even though a poster above basically said he wasn’t? Is it not true that LRH’s family is mostly considered SP, and if so why would they be adamantly against the CoS? If psychiatry is a scam and pushes many to suicide and self-inflicted injuries, why are there many scientology attributable deaths? Why would a religion need people to report on other followers actions? Why would a religion need a militant self-policing group? Why would a religion need a “camp” for followers not meeting the church’s expectations? Why would a church need someone to sign a billion year contract? Why would a church need to have baby corps that try to hide their church afiliation? Why would a church single out protestors who wished to remain anonymous and post their personal information? Why, if a church has nothing to hide, would it be reacting so vigorously to a little online group?

Just to clarify some of the above comments regarding the , as far as I know Scientologists have been preventing people from getting their head meds only through abuse hotlines, education, fighting laws which force people to consume medications which of course would be government funded and run children’s schools which do not use drugs to control the children. Of course once a person has decided to become a Scientologist he will of course not take psychotropics as well as street drugs. By the way, psychotropics and other psychiatric drugs are pretty much the only type of medical service which a Scientologist will be prevented from getting.

I’d like to add that I have a very high respect in no particular order for Catholicism, Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism, Kabbalah, Budhism to name a few.

While I am offended with Anonymous’s attacks on my religion, my major pet peeves with Anonymous are their promotion of psychiatry(which really kills not just “PROFILES AND CATEGORIZES”) and their attacks on religion in general. I realize that it’s not every Anonymous that does this but when somebody uses the name Anonymous there is an ugly complicity factor in the tolerance of the association.

Many Scientology books can be found at a library so it is possible to get information without talking to a Scientology recruiter. I would like to point out that Dianetics, Modern Science Mental Health which was the start of Scientology is only a small part and to get a better idea check out other books like Dianetics 55, and Fundamentals of Thought which really introduce what Scientology is really all about.

I am a scientologist and I have read the comments to the article. One key things about Scientology is that if one really wants to know what it is, he needs to read Scientology books like “What is Scientology” or “The Handbook of Scientology”. These books can be found in public libraries. If one reads Scientology books he will find a lot of data that he could use to have a better understanding in life! As any great religion has been attacked this hold also true for Scientology.
Regarding the attacks on Scientology we are probably at the last stages as the attackers don’t even confront to show their faces but have to use masks|
The gains one obtains in Scientology are spiritual in nature so one cannot expect to see a scientologst flying out of a building with a new set of wings! The imprvements in Scientology are improvements in understanding and freedom of the spirit. All these improvements that can be gotten can be read in the book “What is Scientology”.

Its funny how scientologists will never explain their beliefs, but just tell you to go read the books. This is part of their bait and switch. If they do speak about it, they speak in vague terms about awareness and spirituality. They don’t mention the tin cans, the cost of the courses, or Xenu the space alien who made the disembodied Thetans that are the cause of your problems. As a follower of Christ, I am very comfortable telling you we were created by a lving God, who gives us grace through his son, Jesus Christ, who dies for us all. Scientology is a cult of deception and lies.

Scientologist here.

It is hard to explain our religion. It is better if you start reading LHR books and begin the indoctrination process on your own. If you’re too stupid to read or don’t understand the books, then just trust us. Trust us when we say “we can fix that.” Trust us that the courses you will pay dearly for will improve your lot.
Otherwise we don’t need you.

guess that even though they read the comments I didn’t have any questions worthy of a response. Oh well..we’re all getting used to them and their copypasta.

How scientific is Scientology?
If anyone does not make a gain thru Scientology then it is always their own fault.
It can be because the person is supposedly a potential trouble source connected to a suppressive person who is against Scientology.
Science is what works like turning on a light switch & getting light. The only time light won’t be got is if the mains have tripped or if the globe no longer works or if something is wrong with the wiring etc. However a solution will always be found.
The supposed science of Scientology is more of superstition or auto suggestion or how Scientology is supposed to work & yet so many ex Scientologists & declared suppressives exist thru the politics within the subject.
Anywhere money is gained for profit politics will always undermine the business requiring gaining better positions for more profit.
Scientology appeals to those with money as people without money cannot afford the subject.
People without money can serve the religion like priests sacrificing their lives for menial returns in the belief that they are salvaging the world.
A good con.

FabioG, matty, bgodley and all other $cientology plants:

I would like to know your personal and specific responses to this:

Under Keeping Scientology Working, L. Ron Hubbard stated that it was the duty of every Scientologist to report people who change the technology (squirreling) to Ethics and the RPF. David Miscavige has squirreled the tech by his recent re-release of L. Ron Hubbard’s work, which he admits editing. Therefore, it is your duty as a Scientologist to report David Miscavige to Ethics and the RPF. Will you do your duty as required?

FabioG:
>Regarding the attacks on Scientology we are >probably at the last stages as the attackers >don’t even confront to show their faces but have >to use masks|

You know full well why Anonymous uses masks at protests. If Anonymous members let thier identity known, Scientology declares them “Fair Game” and will go to any end to find a “crime”. The Co$ will even manufacture a crime in order to intimidate or harrass it’s detractors. Thankfully, this policy is failing:

http://glosslip.com/2008/04/03/scientology-case-against-los-angeles-member-of-anonymous-dropped/

Fabiog said: “Regarding the attacks on Scientology we are probably at the last stages as the attackers don’t even confront to show their faces but have to use masks”

You know full well why Anonymous uses masks at protests. If Anonymous members let thier identity known, Scientology declares them “Fair Game” and will go to any end to find a “crime”. The Co$ will even manufacture a crime in order to intimidate or harrass it’s detractors. Thankfully, this policy is failing:

http://glosslip.com/2008/04/03/scientology-case-against-los-angeles-member-of-anonymous-dropped/

For John Peeler

Yes John, you are correct I do question the validity of your claims. Your testimony is however quite sensational. Prison Camps, beatings, quite a story. However there is one fact that I have run across in all this.

There has not been a single criminal charge brought forth by ex-Scientologists such as yourself. The common theme to these stories that you and other ex-Scientologists including a few ex-staff disseminate, is that the criminal activity is always happening to someone else.

If those individuals who you witnessed these terrible things happening to have not come forth themselves and filed charges, how is this true?

Holding someone against their will is illegal. Beatings are illegal.

If you indeed were one to handle Scientology staff on problems with families etc it doesn’t appear you did a very good job. In addition I would think that you did not understand how to apply the philosophy in question.

Again, John you have taken the role of an apostate, one who speaks ill of their former relgion. I am afraid this means you have an agenda as surely as I have in what I state.

Your communication can only be given so much weight in light of what I mentioned earlier. I could also venture that you have never been on staff or at least in the role you claim.

Hey Mr. Chilly. I’ll try to answer some of your “questions”

On the first question, it just never happened. Just another Anon myth.

Celebs don’t get to skip levels and they don’t want to. It isn’t middle school. Each level is more fun and effective than the last one.

As to the videos, LRH’s name is all over that site, as it should be, since he came up with all of the technology.

LRH is not a deity in our religion. He actually jokes in a tape about it.

The only family member that gave him a hard time was his son from his first marriage. He tried to “cash in” using his name after LRH’s death, but failed at it. He was not a scientologist.
At least one of his daughters is still a church executive.

The death toll from Americans under pychiatric care and in institutions numbers a little over 600,000. Those numbers are from their institutional records, not from us. We,of course try to bring attention to the slaughter of that many innocent people.

Part of having a fun ethical group is reporting dishonesty before it ruins the plans of the other group members. Since we can increase a persons integrity,it also points out who needs help in that area.

I don’t know of any “camp, or corps”. Just another Anon myth.

The billion years is just a committment to the amount of work that needs to be done to free mankind.

One ingredient of justice is the ability to face one’s accusers. It’s a very American concept.

Another very American concept is that people should be allowed to practice their religion without attacks and slander from groups like psychiatry, drug companies, who have a huge financial interest in their demise, and will go to great lengths to incite animosity and discredit them.

These opinions are mine. I don’t work for the church, and I was not asked to respond to any of this stuff.

Like the kid in school who lies about you behind your back, but smiles when he sees you, sometimes you just have to ask “Hey what’s up with all these lies you keep telling about me?”

Correction. LRH jr tried to say that LRH was deceased before his death. LRH proved that he was still alive, thus nullifying the claim against his estate.

The Cult of Scientology preys upon the weak. People who are going through tough times need help, not an evil organization looking to strip anyone who comes close of all their money. If there is a God, then their evil deeds will be repaid in the afterlife. And if there is a God…then I’m sure he (or she) is a part of Anon.

We’ll go backwards through your response if you don’t mind….
“Another very American concept is that people should be allowed to practice their religion without attacks and slander from groups like psychiatry, drug companies, who have a huge financial interest in their demise, and will go to great lengths to incite animosity and discredit them.”
I would have to say the religion aspect is not under attack, actions and practices by churh officials are. I hear the “big pharm incite theory” quite a bit, as I have been personally accused of being paid by someone for responding to posts on the internet. Judging by my bank account, that’s a laughable accusation.

“One ingredient of justice is the ability to face one’s accusers. It’s a very American concept.” Facing one’s accusers and having various protestors/reporters followed and harrassed are 2 different things.

“I don’t know of any “camp, or corps”. Just another Anon myth.” not a “anon myth” but a scientologist version that has been verified often by seperate sci’s.

“Part of having a fun ethical group is reporting dishonesty before it ruins the plans of the other group members. Since we can increase a persons integrity,it also points out who needs help in that area.” <- Stalin worded it like that too…

“The death toll from Americans under pychiatric care and in institutions numbers a little over 600,000. Those numbers are from their institutional records, not from us. We,of course try to bring attention to the slaughter of that many innocent people.” Yep. We’re aware of that. Not what I asked. Keeping people who need meds is just as grievous as putting people on who don’t need them.

“The only family member that gave him a hard time was his son from his first marriage. He tried to “cash in” using his name after LRH’s death, but failed at it. He was not a scientologist.
At least one of his daughters is still a church executive.” There’s also numerous others…the autistic nephew, his grandkids..of course LRH made sure his family was taken care of with the fortune he accrued right? Um no. Stayed with the church.

“As to the videos, LRH’s name is all over that site, as it should be, since he came up with all of the technology.” yes you can find him on the site…not the vids..but everyone’s pretty much shown the vids are not quite truthful..with made up titles for people pictured and out of context quotes…

“On the first question, it just never happened. Just another Anon myth.” Actually it rattles back and forth with the bet theory and the one I asked about. Both are well documented..but since they go against what the “church”‘s stance is, it’s just anon propaganda, like every other argument. It’s ok. We’ve got time…and the sci’s keep giving us more and more info…

To Anonymous~ April 4th, 2008 | 9:40 pm

In a nutshell, the new basic Scientology books correct typos, and editorial and publishing errors so the books more accurately reflect the original writings of Hubbard.

If anyone altered or “squirreled” the tech, Scientolgoists would definitely protest. But correcting editorial mistakes isn’t necessarily “squirrelling”. Examples of appropriate corrections might be a paragraph out of sequence or a even just a misplaced comma that makes the sentence harder to understand.

It actually did happen about 30 years ago that some Top execs tried to significantly change Scientology texts and adminitrative policy and procedures to suit their own whims. Scientolgists reported it and those “squirrelling” execs were sent packing and the original material was restored. That is in essence, the purpose of the RTC (Religious Technology Center), to protect the materials from being stolen, pirated or altered.

Those fired execs also circulated petitions in a number of Scientology churches and tried to lure staff to join their “new” form of “Scientology”. I was there and I saw this with my own eyes.

Matt

To Tony April 4th, 2008 | 1:26 pm

Scientologists believe that we ARE spirits rather than that we HAVE them. That our creative and intellectual capapbilities are much higher than many of the “mental sciences” give us credit for.

Scientologists believe that “man is basically good” at the heart of it all, and a large majority of people want to accomplish good, constructive things, and consistently do so when armed with the proper tools and understanding.

“Understanding is the universal solvent” and communication is a key element in understanding.

So, here I am communicating. Try to be nice, okay?

To Matt,,

1. How long have you been with the church?

2. How many hours of auditing have you paid for?

3. Do you still get to see your Mom & Dad?

4. How long has it been since you visited your family?

5. Can you name a famous person you were in a past life?

6. Do you still have a normal job outside the church that affords you money for CoS books and auditing?

or..
7. Do you work for the church for under $100 a week? (way below minimum wage)

8. Do you think its strange church members aren’t allowed to talk about their religion with other?

9. What happens to you if you openly disagree with the church?

10. Do you think its odd the church made you sign a document saying you would never sue them? (I never heard of any other church or self help program that does this..)

Just wondering… all of the other Scientologist reading this, please answer the question to help us all better understand. I’m betting this post well get ignored by the bgodley and the other Scientologist posting here.

10 Question:

I will answer your questions however I have a feeling this will not dissuade you from your stance as the tone of your communication does not appear to be truth seeking.

1)18 years

2)Don’t know exactly.

3)My died passed away when I was 13 from a heartattack. My mom passed away when I was 21 from cancer. I became a Scientologist a few months after my mom passed away.

4) My family now consists of brothers and extended family. Actually before I became a Scientologist my brothers and I were estranged and none of us were in communication with the rest of the family. After completing some auditing I realized I could fix these gaps and actually sent out letters to all my relatives and brothers. I collected phone numbers and addresses and got all of us back into good communication. Ever since my brothers and I have been to family events, birthdays, thanksgiving parties, weddings including getting my last surviving uncle up to a pioneer event in Canada.

5) No. This is a pretty silly question.

6) Before I got in Scientology I didn’t have a job. I have run three successful companies which I have sold all providing ample income.

7)No, I am not a church employee. I currently volunteer on a no pay basis where I don’t make any money as volunteers in any group usually don’t.

8)I talk about my religion often with my own family, friends, clients of my business etc. I have family, friends and clients who are not Scientologists and they all appreciate me for just being me. None of them feel a need to be judgemental. Your idea that Scientologists don’t talk about their religion is a fairly ridiculous assumption especially when critics such as yourself often state we do it too much.

9)I disagree sometimes with certain actions of fellow paritioners or church staff however I don’t go running around picketing in front of buildings. If I were to publicy criticize the church I may asked to handle it. If I continued despite handlings within the church I may be kicked out and stripped of any benefits of membership. Some individuals depsite doing this have been accpeted back into the group. But that is not something weird with Scientology, almost any group does this. If you publicy decried the Catholic church they will excommuniate you. If you were a member of the Chicago Bears football team and continued to criticize your team mates or the organization itself you would be sanctioned or kicked off the team. There are some specific contract points that you agree to in professoinal sports to not do this.

10) No I don’t find that weird in any case. If the Church did not suffer the heavy criticism and repeated attempts to degrade it from critics such as yourself than there would be less of a need for it. However, those very actions call for the Church to defend it’s activities. It simply doesn’t matter whether any other organization does it or not. If you choose to partake in the religious philosophy of Scientology than these are the agreements you make. If you don’t agree or find this too restrictive than simply don’t join. What is often most interesting is individuals such as yourself who desire no benefit of the philosophy, or assistance of the organization of Scientology, are the ones who are complaining. The millions of Scientologists who actually engange in its actions don’t.

http://wikileaks.org/leak/scientology-ot-levels.pdf

This is Lafayette Ronald Hubbard’s own hand writing there’s no mistaking it.

Download it, save it and used it as allowed by the “Fair Use” Section 107 of the Copyright Laws.

“One of the more important limitations is the doctrine of “fair use.” Although fair use was not mentioned in the previous copyright law, the doctrine has developed through a substantial number of court decisions over the years. This doctrine has been codified in section 107 of the copyright law.

Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered “fair,” such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research.”

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

@10-Questions April 7th, 2008 | 5:37 pm

1. I have been a Scientologist for *many* years.

2. I don’t know how many hours. I have paid for some auditing and I have done co-audits as a student (study the course and audit each other) and I had some auditing while on staff.

3. I am still in contact with my family, have never been encouraged to “disconnect” from anyone and no one at the church has ever made any attempt to dictate or control my relationships with any members of my family, friends or associates, Scientologists or not.

4. I see my family every day. Members of my family who live out of town I saw about 6 months ago.

5. No

6. I used to be a staff member but I am currently NOT employed by the church or any related organization group or individual. My job is not related to Scientology at all.

7. I am not employed by the church in any way. I am not paid or instructed or guided to say anything. I have no “handlers” or anyone otherwise controlling my actions or statements.

8. Scientologists are allowed to discuss their religion. If you have come across a Scientologist who is hestiant, maybe it’s because it can be intimidating to be hit with a long list of questions like “why aren’t you allowed to talk about your religion?” and sometimes even things like “are you an alien?”.

It’s sad to think that there might even be Scientolgists who publicly stay “in the closet” because “coming out” might unfairly affect their jobs or how they are treated.

9. It depends on the specific situation. Scientologists aren’t expected to “believe” anything or “agree” with anything that isn’t real to them. I “believe” what I have observed or experienced and I “agree” with what I have seen to be true. No one says “you must believe in past lives” or anything like that. There is a book that claims that some people have experienced this, but no one is required to believe it.

“Evaluation” is telling someone what they believe or feel. “Invalidation” is telling someone that what they believe or have experienced is wrong or otherwise invalid. These things, known as “inval and eval”, are strongly discouraged in Scientology.

If someone “believed” the church was an evil cult that needed to be destroyed, I don’t think they would be offered coffee or asked to deliver a sermon. That would probably be treated in a similar way any other church would regard that.

10. I’m not sure what document you are referring to, so I can’t give a specific answer to that.

I have signed waivers, but never anything that I felt uncomfortable with or that I thought compromised my rights to justice or fair treatment or put me at personal risk.

There is no waiver that allows anyone to commit crimes or any illegal acts. You couldn’t even have a waiver that says “it’s okay to assault me, abuse me, hold me against my will, defraud me…”. If you did it wouldn’t be valid and would never hold up in court.

I’m really glad that you are asking questions instead of just jumping to conclusions. There is a lot of vile stuff being circulated now. Try to understand the pressure innocent Scientologists might be under, and may be getting hit with some accusative or insulting questions right now.

Not everyone can answer every question ever posed about their religion, even without all the ridiculous rumors. Try not to make them feel like there’s an inquisition.

I hope everyone will remember that not everything you read on the internet is true. Even if it is repeated a thousand times. Scientologists should be able to practice their religion without being harrassed or ridiculed, even if someone else thinks it’s weird.

Scientologists should be able to say they are Scientologists without being hounded by a barrage of questions demanding they defend every rumor ever uttered about their Church.

Scientologists are human and imperfect, just like everyone else. I hope that my church or its members aren’t automatically blamed for my faults.

Ok, now here are 10 questions for the Anon posters:

1. Do you beleive that you have to support psychiatry and shock treatment in order to be against our church?

2. Is there any possibility in your mind that our previously existing adversaries such as drug companies and psychiatry had any hand in your actions?

3. Do you think that the “Honk if you hate Scientology” signs that you carry have a different effect than carrying “Honk if you hate Jews” signs in front of a synagogue?

4. What would you do if someone attacked your religion or philosophy using the same tactics?

5. Are you against religion in general, or just newer ones?

6. Do you think that there is a possibility that some of the information on hate sites is false?

7. Do you think that anyone actually benefits from religion?

8. Do you think that anyone has ever benefitted from Scientology?

9. Why would some of you advocate “free zone” Scientology if you didn’t think the subject had any merit?

10. Do you think that any Anon members are persons that have been excommunicated from Scientology for continual dishonest or criminal activities?

Thanks for responding..

My main issue with the Church is the “fair game law” that it uses on even the smallest of critics.

I’ve read bgodley and a number of other scientologist on various forms claiming that thats an old practice. That the church doesn’t practice “fair game” anymore. With lies like this, how can we believe anything else they claim?

Every Anon that got outed in the protests have been contacted & harassed.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2008/03/anonymous-scientology-legal-letters-gregg-latham-watkins.php

You must understand the internet won’t give up.. as long as these practices continue, there well always been Anonymous on the internet pointing it out.

The Church of Scientology defines scientology as “the study of truth.” BUT Mostly, all I see is lies, Mostly.

Why not answer the questions? We answered yours.

Answers for Stephen:

Q. Do you beleive that you have to support psychiatry and shock treatment in order to be against our church?

A. No. I do not have to support psychiatry in order to against your church. At a basic level, I agree a lot about the problems with psychiatry, but I don’t want to “obliterate” them ( personally I dislike dentists more ). I do believe in talk therapy, which is much like your auditing but without the personal files and e-meter readings.

Q. Is there any possibility in your mind that our previously existing adversaries such as drug companies and psychiatry had any hand in your actions?

A. None.

Q. Do you think that the “Honk if you hate Scientology” signs that you carry have a different effect than carrying “Honk if you hate Jews” signs in front of a synagogue?

A. No. The analogy would be the same if the sign said “Honk if you hate Scientologists”. It’s not you personally, it’s the crimes and lies of your church and it’s suppression of freedom of the internet that we want to bring to light.

Q. What would you do if someone attacked your religion or philosophy using the same tactics?

A. People do attack my religion. They attack it for so many reasons. Priests molesting childern, anti-abortion stance, etc.. but me or my church doesn’t go after those that have attacked it. I don’t go on-line defending the wrongs of my church.

Q. Are you against religion in general, or just newer ones?

A. We’re not against any religion. We’re against the crimes and lies of your church and it’s suppression of freedom of the internet. Look at the Freezone people. Ex-Scientologists who share their knowledge and help others openly and freely. They believe in this quacky little guy name Ron and his “tech”, but they aren’t trying to suppress freedom of the internet.

Q. Do you think that there is a possibility that some of the information on hate sites is false?

A. I would say YES, if it was just one site or a few individuals. The problem is the majority is from ex-scientologists from various cities and countries, even some that knew Ron personally. You make it sound like there’s a big conspiracy that incorporates several thousands of private individuals from around the globe, which it is not.

Q. Do you think that anyone actually benefits from religion?

A. Everyone benefits from believing in something, even if it’s the belief that there is nothing. Again, it’s not your religion, it’s the crimes and lies of your church and it’s suppression of freedom of the internet. Make a difference and ask for change within your church.

Q. Do you think that anyone has ever benefitted from Scientology?

A. I think that people can benefit from Scientology the same way people can benefit from talk therapy. Being able to talk to someone about your problems is very beneficial, even if you believe that you’re exorcisting (sp.) engrams from past lives or alien spirits.

Q. Why would some of you advocate “free zone” Scientology if you didn’t think the subject had any merit?

A. The Freezone people are Ex-Scientologists who share their knowledge and help others openly and freely. They are not against freedom of the internet.

Q. Do you think that any Anon members are persons that have been excommunicated from Scientology for continual dishonest or criminal activities?

A. Of course there are some that have been ex-communicated, but why? Aren’t you there to help? Even if they are “continual dishonest or criminal”. Don’t you want to help the criminals? Isn’t that what Criminon is all about?

How about the homeless? Or the poor? What about people that can’t afford the cost of auditing or books or courses – and don’t want to sign a billion year contract – where do they get help from Dianetics and Scientology?

Make a difference. Ask for change within your church.

Ok, now here are 10 questions for the Anon posters:

1. Do you believe that you have to support psychiatry and shock treatment in order to be against our church?

This isn’t my issue… and I’m not against the church, just its practices with ex members and critics.

2. Is there any possibility in your mind that our previously existing adversaries such as drug companies and psychiatry had any hand in your actions?

In my actions? Absolutely not. I believe all your teachings and books should ALL be available at public library’s like every other religion that enjoys tax free status.

3. Do you think that the “Honk if you hate Scientology” signs that you carry have a different effect than carrying “Honk if you hate Jews” signs in front of a synagogue?

I have never carried any signs or attended a protest. I believe the amount of people protesting only equals 1% of the cause.

Should they change the sign to read “Honk if you hate Scientology’s fair game law” or “Honk is you hate pyramid schemes” instead? Anon please make your signs more specific.

4. What would you do if someone attacked your religion or philosophy using the same tactics?

Ever here of taking the high road? If you believe in your religion whole heartedly who cares what others say about it. BUT attacking them back, makes you look worse if not evil.

5. Are you against religion in general, or just newer ones?

Most religions help build a stronger family, not disconnect them. Disconnection should never be an option.

6. Do you think that there is a possibility that some of the information on hate sites is false?

haven’t found any. Whenever I ask a Scientologist for answers regarding Co$ teachings, mostly they go straight for my wallet and tell me to go buy a Co$ book, mostly.

7. Do you think that anyone actually benefits from religion?

Yes, I believe most religions are good. The Lutheran church help my mother keep the family together during death and dark times. All non-believers are welcome at anytime.

8. Do you think that anyone has ever benefited from Scientology?

I think the scientologist that sign up “raw meat” benefit from lifetime commissions from auditing and book sales.

9. Why would some of you advocate “free zone” Scientology if you didn’t think the subject had any merit?

I think all your documents should be free for the church to be able to keep your tax exempt status. I believe “free zone” is a step in the right direction. If all the documents are freely available, the unsuspecting WOG has the ability to research your religion before s/he is subjected to 1 on 1′s with your auditors, which most outsiders see as hypnotism & brainwashing.

10. Do you think that any Anon members are persons that have been excommunicated from Scientology for continual dishonest or criminal activities?

It appears the church has excommunicated thousands of ex members and labeled them Sp’s, but i still think their part in anonymous is less then 2-5 %. And i bet they just want to see their family’s again. Disconnection is evil.

Here is a better question then my previous 10. Since the church admits it excommunicates ex-members for various reasons, How many members have been labeled as SP or ex-communicated? Whats the percentage?

10-Questions April 7th, 2008 | 9:30 pm

I have never heard of “Fair Game” except from “critics” and anti-Scientologists. I have never seen it practiced by any Scientologist.

The problem with answering some of your questions is that you are stating rumors as fact and asking me to defend them. If someone says they were harrassed a crime was committed, they should prove it. There should be a fair trial, no a “mob” trial on the internet.

Are you familiar with the near impossibility of disproving a negative? What if I asked you to prove you weren’t a criminal? Or prove you aren’t a witch? What if 9000 people on the internet say you are?

That’s why we have fair trials and the presumption of innocence in the US.

FAIR GAME

When “Fair game” is brought up, they (Scientologist)often try to change the subject and for example attack you, asking what criminal acts you have on your conscience or if you are payed by the drug cartells or something. According to Scientology all critics of Scientology are criminals, that’s why they are critics. Nice logic.

For more information on “Fair game” please read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)

http://www.xenu.net/fairgame-e.html

here is an example of current use of Fair Game:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2008/03/anonymous-scientology-legal-letters-gregg-latham-watkins.php

4. What would you do if someone attacked your religion or philosophy using the same tactics?

Ever here of taking the high road? If you believe in your religion whole heartedly who cares what others say about it. BUT attacking them back, makes you look worse if not evil.

FAIR GAME

When “Fair game” is brought up, they (Scientologist)often try to change the subject and for example attack you, asking what criminal acts you have on your conscience or if you are payed by the drug cartells or something. According to Scientology all critics of Scientology are criminals, that’s why they are critics. Nice logic.

For more information on “Fair game” please read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)

http://www.xenu.net/fairgame-e.html

here is an example of current use of Fair Game:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2008/03/anonymous-scientology-legal-letters-gregg-latham-watkins.php

4. What would you do if someone attacked your religion or philosophy using the same tactics?

Ever here of taking the high road? If you believe in your religion whole heartedly who cares what others say about it. BUT attacking them back, makes you look worse if not evil..

But, this is all IMHO. Don’t sue me.

FAIR GAME

When “Fair game” is brought up, they (Scientologist)often try to change the subject and for example attack you, asking what criminal acts you have on your conscience or if you are payed by the drug cartells or something. According to Scientology all critics of Scientology are criminals, that’s why they are critics. Nice logic.

For more information on “Fair game” please read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)

http://www.xenu.net/fairgame-e.html

Here is an example of current use of Fair Game:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2008/03/anonymous-scientology-legal-letters-gregg-latham-watkins.php

4. What would you do if someone attacked your religion or philosophy using the same tactics?

Ever here of taking the high road? If you believe in your religion whole heartedly who cares what others say about it. BUT attacking them back, makes you look worse if not evil..

But, this is all IMHO. Don’t sue me.

One last note on FAIR GAME.

If the Co$ doesn’t practice Fair Game anymore, then why do they send someone out at each protest to take pictures of the Anon’s not wearing masks? Or follow innocent protesters to their cars trying to write down their license numbers?

See what i mean… all your statements don’t match your actions. If Co$ doesn’t practice Fair Game anymore, then what does it call it?

OK.. this is a scientology website… they removed my response and last 2 posts..

See what i mean… all your statements don’t match your actions. If Co$ doesn’t practice Fair Game anymore, then what does it call it?

so much for open honest communication.

Ok.. you opened the line of communication, so I asked some questions & you answered.

Thank you

So you asked some questions & I answered IMHO.

I thought we were getting somewhere and some things you said made sense.

But when i replied with links to the fair game law.. and said, “if Fair Game doesn’t exist why do you have scientologist take pictures of unmasked Anon’s at protests.” You deleted my 4 posts.

So now am i to believe everything you say is bullshit?

Why did you ask me the 10 questions just to delete the posts?

Don’t you think the average person can see thru all this?

I have no more questions for you, I now see your true colors.

This message board is ran by Co$.

Glad i use a proxy.

Don’t blow a gasket there “10 questions”.

It looks like your posts went up afterall (sometimes it just takes a minute)

I know you’re passionate about what you are doing but your posts are coming off as desperate and accusative. I don’t see the Scientolgists on here doing what you are accusing them of.

They seem to be nice, sincere people just trying to dispel these rumors you’ve been told. Try to put yourself in their shoes.

A smart-ass hacker group played a prank which amplified into a “hate for fun” game against a church. And still the Scientologists are trying to be nice and answer your questions (even though you are not being very nice to them). There is no evidence to speak of against them except that “a bunch of dudes on the internet said it was true”.

Hopefully, when the excitment dies down people will realize that even a minority religion doesn’t deserve to be attacked in a “trial by internet”.

Xtina

My post were submitted and showed up on the board. They were all there. About 20 minutes after the last post was listed, they were all removed. Even my 11:09 post was removed, while Matt’s 11:20 post stayed.

I was at an internet cafe last night about 8 hours later & the posts were still all gone. I pointed this out to about 10 people. Now this morning all the post are here with you telling me to chill.

By your posts xtina and most of the others, it appears this site is ran by Co$. I wonder if the advertisers here know that.

I want to repeat my last question if you wouldn’t mind answering it..

If the Co$ doesn’t practice Fair Game anymore, then why do they send someone out at each protest to take pictures of the Anon’s not wearing masks? I have watched the videos and seen them follow innocent protesters to their cars trying to write down their license numbers?

To me, your statements don’t match your actions.

Thank you for your responses.

If you do not know, when a comment is submitted it has to wait to be approved. So it will not go in if porn, spam or drug related. It may take a few hours to go in sometimes.

If you have posted a comment here before, in most cases it does not need to be approved.

Also the post may show for you as you posted it, but will not show for others if not approved. All comments get approved unless again it comes under spam. So check back, as 99% go in.

The “Fair Game” policy was cancelled a year after it was issued, in the 1960s, because of the potential that it could be misinterpreted. Yes, that’s right, it was cancelled OVER 30 YEARS AGO. There is no proof it ever condoned criminal acts, and no evidence it ever resulted in any crimes by any Church member ever, even in the one year it was in effect. Most Scientologists have never even heard of it.

In recent history, the “fair game myth” was broadly forwarded in a case involving a wealthy investor named Bob Minton. Bob lied under oath against the church. He financed a case against the church to the tune of at least $2 million, and tried to get something like $8 million back on his investment. The relevant facts are in court documents, and you can read them if you want. Here is an article with a brief summary.
—–
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/04/20/TampaBay/Church_s_leading_foes.shtml
(here’s an excerpt)
“Robert Minton, one of the most vocal critics of Scientology, testified that he just had enough of the lies and under the advice of his attorney wanted to recant his false statements.”
—–

Bob Minton got some of his (mis)information against the church from Stacy Brooks, an excommunicated former member with an axe to grind. Stacy was also proven in court to have lied under oath. She was paid to testify against the church, so the more “testimony” she provided the longer she kept her job. Saying the church practiced “fair game” tactics was one of the things she was paid to do. It was proven in court that she was lying too.

Stacy’s lies are being repeated on the internet and this is supposed to be “proof” to justify this current attack on the church. Sometimes they are repeated by other disgruntled ex-members, some of them “anonymously”, so their stories can’t even be checked out or scrutinized. Accusations about the churches “tactics” have been proven false IN COURT but they still get repeated on the internet as fact.

So, now there have been protests, mostly by people who heard stories on the internet, not through first hand experience. If church staff or security guards are taking pictures of people on or near the property, maybe they believe it is a security issue.

Most people would agree that a random bunch of “anonymous” protesters in masks is a security risk worth keeping an eye on. There have also been reports of threats against the church.

Taking pictures and noting down license plate numbers is not a crime. The Scientologists have a right to try to protect their property, staff and visitors.

xtina..this is far from hate for fun…it is a web based prtest that has carried over off the web and into the streets.
As far as the argument stands with the “The problem with answering some of your questions is that you are stating rumors as fact and asking me to defend them.” stance, is that there is proof to most of the accusations tossed at the Co$. It’s documented, confirmed, and in some cases, carries the seal of a government. Video evidence, court papers, etc are not what rumors are made of. When dozens of ex-sci’s all tell of the same atrocities, then you’re out of the rumor realm. Whem documents and pictures surface, then people can no longer turn a blind eye.
The stance of church members that aren’t “osa” is completely predictable. Sometimes a strong belief can distort one’s vision. The real question that the scientologists should be asking themselves is “what if this isn’t a bunch of bs? What if my “church” HAS done these things?” Blindly defending and not thinking can have hazardous results.
And yes, I have visited my local church, and yes, I have drawn my own conclusions. Beliefs aren’t the issue here. Crimes against people are.

MrChillyAnon

You should ask yourself the same questions. What if Scientology ISN’T a bunch of bs? What if they HAVEN’T done all those rumored horrible things? And furthermore, what if it really is a good organiation accomplishing positive things? Blindly -attacking- and not thinking is also harmful.

You are, like others, TALKING ABOUT crimes and proof, documented and confirmed, but not providing any. Many of your friends don’t know the difference between a rumor spread on the internet and a crime, testimony and proof. These all hold very specific legal definitions which you should avail yourself of. Your disinformation is showing.

Talking about proof is not proof. It’s a rumor of proof. You provide no specifics, just general allegations. That’s what a rumor is. It’s a propaganda line to discredit someone or something without actual facts.

Do your allegations relate to something specific, current and ongoing? Recent? Like LMT?

Here’s a source for you that completely discredits one of the biggest, most repeated rumors some of your friends have been spreading.
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/04/20/TampaBay/Church_s_leading_foes.shtml

There’s more where that came from, so I suggest we should all check facts and sources before going off like loose cannons.

To me and all the others.. This appears to be proof enough:

If the Co$ doesn’t practice Fair Game anymore, then why do they send someone out at each protest to take pictures of the Anon’s not wearing masks? Or follow innocent protesters to their cars trying to write down their license numbers?

See what i mean… all your statements don’t match your actions.

If Co$ doesn’t practice Fair Game anymore, then what does it call it? I’ve put that question there 3 times and you choose to ignore it. Why?

Here is an example of current use of Fair Game:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2008/03/anonymous-scientology-legal-letters-gregg-latham-watkins.php

4. What would you do if someone attacked your religion or philosophy using the same tactics?

Ever here of taking the high road? If you believe in your religion whole heartedly who cares what others say about it. BUT attacking them back, makes you look worse if not incredibly evil..

If Anonymous did this to any mainstream religion or Church it wouldn’t be tolerated for a second!

Exercising their legal rights to defend their security is not wrong. The church is not doing anything illegal.

They have a right to protect themselves.

@ MissS

How many Country’s does the Co$ operate in?
How many offices/churches does Co$ have?
How much money does the Co$ make annually?

Really? Thats pretty mainstream.

Whats the amount of taxes the C0$ avoided in 2007 due to tax-exempt status?
How many lawsuits has the Co$ been involved in?
How many lawsuits have the Co$ created or had filed against them per capita of its member base?

Meaning – if you have had 2 million followers and XXX amount of law suits over the last 50 years. If you multiplied both of the figures by 500 million, how many lawsuits would that be?

Seriously, do you think the world would stand for that much bullshit?

You missed the point.

Scientology may be a SUCCESSFUL religion, but it isn’t “mainstream”.

How about if I word it this way…?

If Anonymous did this to any OTHER mainstream religion or Church it wouldn’t be tolerated for a second!

CCHR is a front for the cult of scientology. We are supposed to take advice about mental health from a group that believes psychiatrists and space aliens blew us up in volcanos 75 million years ago? Please. CCHR uses fabricated statistics to push their claims; i.e., they do not mentions stat for suicide rates of people NOT on medication, nor do their stats prove that medication makes one’s condition worse. In short, none of their propoganda is scientific in nature. It’s all about the space aliens.

The Church doesn’t make any money annually. It is a non profit.

Donations by parishioners are deductible by the IRS ruling. The status of the Church itself was non profit prior to the ruling.

The number of lawsuits is directly proportional to the number of strange people who try to prevent us from practicing our religion.

The percentage is very small, but the noise can be as disconcerting as a swarm of crickets just before dawn.

RayOfLight:
Completely discredits? I clicked your link and read that article.

Shocking yes. But they also add that there’s a backstory that has yet to surface.

Do you really need me to paste all of the cases and judgements and judges comments and kidnapping articles and all the other stuff that’s posted on every one of these threads? I’d be happy to comply if you need me to. I still don’t get how scientologist’s own documents can be pawned off as a rumor. It’s the Co$’s stuff, from their people, but it’s rumor? Don’t think so. I’ll be interested to see what’s in the wikileaks documents.

MrChillyAnon

Rumors of a backstory? That’s pretty scary!

Six years later and still nothing!

MissS wrote’ “If Anonymous did this to any OTHER mainstream religion or Church it wouldn’t be tolerated for a second!”

If any other mainstream religion disconnected families and excommunicated its ex-members, I don’t think the world would tolerate them for a second either.

Just know, you are the target because you ‘prey’ on the weak minded. You pretend to help them, but you just want their money. I’ve read your auditing technique at wikilink and your methods are dangerous. You scramble peoples mind & I don’t expect you to see it, cause your weak mind has been scrambled at one point also or you would never believe this shit yourself.

All those going to heaven line up on the right & those destined for hell line up on the left.
God is supposedly on the right of a good person whilst the devil occupies the left od someone bad.
Scientology sells heaven on Earth thru its tech so who gets sold on the subject supposedly get the rewards whilst alive by how they have been good by buying into Scientology
In most other religions a person must wait & find out If ever they do find out if they end up in heaven or hell.
These are all good mechanisms for TRYING to keep people good.
Need to keep the socio ploitical systems working.
AMEN

Stephen,

What makes a person first rave about Scientology and then condemn it?

What would ever make you condemn it?

Question: What makes a person first rave about Scientology and then condemn it?

Answer: Actor Jason Beghe: Scientology Is ‘Brainwashing’

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351426,00.html

He was so successful as a celebrity auditor, he says, that David Miscavige, the head of the sect, referred to him as “the poster boy for Scientology.” Sounds like Jason prepaid for a bunch of auditing and when he asked for some of the unused money back, they complied and then ex-communicated him.

They sound like such wonderful people. Everyone here defending the Co$ should be ashamed.

I am a scientologist since 1983.
I think that there are a lot of valid religions in the world and that in any religion one can find spritual gains.
I have chosen to study Scientology as Scientology is an adventure. Through the Scientology counseling one finds more and more about his past as a being and having freed up “attention units” from the past is more able to put these attention units towards the future. Thanks to Scientology I became aware of a lot of things:
1- That I am on not just a body.
2- That I am a sprit directing a body through a mind.
3- That, as a being, I didn’t start to exist when this body started to exist…..
4- That when I will die I will continue to exist as a being.
5- I am not worried about death but for me it is just a “waste of time”.
6- That the road to freedom is parallel to the road to understanding.
7- That personal ethics has a great deal to do with one’s progress.
8- That man is in a very bad situation. Man is basically a being “trapped” in a body and usually anaware of being a spiritual being.

Fabio G

Frank G: Did you read the comment above regarding Actor Jason Beghe?

If you knew 50% or more of the people involved with the church had a negative experience like the one Jason mentions. Would you still feel good about your teachings and or dealings with this type of organization?

If only 1 in 10 had a good experience, would you feel good about yourself if you were the “1″?

Or are you so weak minded, brainwashed and retarded that none of that matters?

If you defend Co$, the blood of the fallen members is on your hands.

Please read: http://www.whyaretheydead.net/

Pssss.. hey, are you Frank G or Fabio G or did the two of you write that post together?

Frank G, heres what you need to learn.

1- That I am on not just a body. I’m am a body that Co$ owns.

2- That I am a spirit directing a body through a mind that Co$ controls.

3- sure, whatever

4- sure, whatever

5- sure, whatever you believe well be true for you.

6- That the true road to freedom is parallel to the road to understanding that you’re being controlled by a cult. If you disagree with Co$ do you have the freedom to share it without the fear of being excommunicated?

7- That the size of your bank account has a great deal to do with one’s progress in Co$.

8- That man is in a very bad situation ‘only’ if you believe this is true. Did you ever think that ‘maybe’ man is doing just fine? The church want you to think we are all screwed so you’ll buy their solutions/brainwashing.

When you walk outside in the morning you can see the pile of shit from the neighbors dog or the pretty flowers. Co$ brainwashes you to only see the shit. Your life is what you make of it. Get out from under the churches control and be the director of your own life, like the rest of us..

And to those who want out.. Even if the church stole everything you have.. killing yourself isn’t the answer. There are lots of kind loving people who would love to help you. Free your mind and your ass well follow.

Frank,

Your posting is great. I think that if more Scientologists just came out and said what they believe, the “religion” part of Scientology would be more accepted.

Everyone benefits from believing in something, even if it’s the belief that there is nothing. Again, it’s not your religion, it’s the crimes and lies of your church and it’s suppression of freedom of the internet that we’re against.

Make a difference and ask for change within your church.

Frank G: Did you read the comment above regarding Actor Jason Beghe?

If you knew 50% or more of the people involved with the church had a negative experience like the one Jason mentions. Would you still feel good about your teachings and or dealings with this type of organization?

If only 1 in 10 had a good experience, would you feel good about yourself if you were the “1″?

If you defend Co$, the blood of the fallen members is on your hands.

Please read: http://www.whyaretheydead.net/

Pssss.. hey, are you Frank G or Fabio G or did the two of you write that post together?

Frank G, heres what you need to learn.

1- That I am on not just a body. I’m am a body that Co$ owns.

2- That I am a spirit directing a body through a mind that Co$ controls.

3- sure, whatever

4- sure, whatever

5- sure, whatever you believe well be true for you.

6- That the true road to freedom is parallel to the road to understanding that you’re being controlled by a cult. If you disagree with Co$ do you have the freedom to share it without the fear of being excommunicated?

7- That the size of your bank account has a great deal to do with one’s progress in Co$.

8- That man is in a very bad situation ‘only’ if you believe this is true. Did you ever think that ‘maybe’ man is doing just fine? The church want you to think we are all screwed so you’ll buy their solutions/brainwashing.

When you walk outside in the morning you can see the pile of shit from the neighbors dog or the pretty flowers. Co$ brainwashes you to only see the shit. Your life is what you make of it. Get out from under the churches control and be the director of your own life, like the rest of us..

And to those who want out.. Even if the church stole everything you have.. killing yourself isn’t the answer. There are lots of kind loving people who would love to help you. Free your mind and your ass well follow….

Dear All,
Thanks for the reply on my posting.
I would like to comment on some of posts.
1- Scientology, as any other great religion, has been attacked. Christianity was recognized as a religion only after 300 years…. Scientology is doing better than that… as it is already recognized as religion in several Countries.
2- It is totally true that how one sees the world depends on his own viewpoint. Scientology has a positive viewpoint on life; for Scientology “man is basically good”, “communication is the universal solvent” etc. Before Scientology I had a darker view on life, after having read several books and listened to a lot of lectures of Hubbard I can see through the complexities and see what are the points that I have to address to solve the problem.
My stable datum is that at I am causing directly or indirectly my own problems and that to solve a problem I have to be the solver rather than the problem…
3- Regarding people changing religion I don’t think that that is uncommon. I have read an article that stated that in the US 27% of the people follow a different religion that the one they were born in. A lot of people decided that Scientology was a better answer to their spiritual questions. On the other hand people studied Scientology and didn’t found what they were looking for. Everybody is free to change religion…. Also I don’t like Scientology because some famous people follow it. I like it because I find the data in the Scientology books valuable. So if an actor states that he has decided to change religion for me it is ininfluential.
Fabio G

Frank G Wrote:
3- Regarding people changing religion I don’t think that that is uncommon. I have read an article that stated that in the US 27% of the people follow a different religion that the one they were born in. A lot of people decided that Scientology was a better answer to their spiritual questions. On the other hand people studied Scientology and didn’t found what they were looking for. Everybody is free to change religion…. Also I don’t like Scientology because some famous people follow it. I like it because I find the data in the Scientology books valuable. So if an actor states that he has decided to change religion for me it is influential.”

EXCEPT, if you leave Scientology you can’t EVER talk to anyone in the church again. You are ex-communicated and labeled a SP. You are then disconnected from the church and everyone in it. If your family is still involved, you’re not allowed to talk to them.

Can you give me any examples of someone leaving Scientology where this didn’t happen? Frank if you haven’t experienced this yet… wait tell you try and leave.

Please comment on this if you wish.
Or comment on the http://www.whyaretheydead.net/ link. You guys always seem to ignore that one.

Frank/Fabio,

Do you think that just maybe if church policies changed a little bit, the publc/media would see it from your point of view?

I mean, Mormons stopped polygamy, which was one of ther main tenants. Surely, the church can stop disconnection, the RPF, “Fair Game” against SPs…

Fair Game was cancelled almost twenty years ago. The RPF stands for Rehabilitation Project Force. It fixes a few staff that needed correction on their jobs,and makes them much more competent, instead of just showing them the door. It is a much more compassionate way to handle people.

Mr. Hubbard wrote millions of words. You pick a couple of lines and try to misinterpret them.

Stephen,

I though maybe you’d be able to have a constructive line of communication since you posted questions and I answered them honestly.

But is seems that you ( and probably all other current Scientologists ) either don’t want to acknowledge the problems within your church and it’s management or you really honestly feel there’s nothing wrong with the way things are being handled.

In either case, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I’m hoping that one day you to learn the truth about your church. Everyone does sooner or later. It’s just sad that on the average it takes 10-20 years before members become ex-members.

Your turn will come one day as well.

Maybe not tomorrow, but someday.

And when that day is here, you’ll remember all the ex-member postings and wonder “Why didn’t I listen?”

Until then, there’s nothing I can say to you to make you change your mind. So I don’t. I’ll just continue to express my opinion freely as it is my right to do on this great platform called

The Internet.

Thank you for your postings Stephen

Dear “be there done that”,
The problem with the media is not much on what Scientology does wrong but on the fact that media is financed by “big pharma” and Scientology was never in favor of phsichiatric drugging of the population.

IF Scientology would have been a “little red church in the valley” probably the media wouldn’t have harassed it for years.

Regarding RPF and disconnection these are some data.

1st. The Rehabilitation project force it is a program that is done if a “Sea Org Member” fails badly on his post.

It consists of 5 hours of study and auditing a day and the rest is work on specific projects. I have spoken with several people that have done the RPF and they were much more happy and bright after having done that. I, myself, wouldn’t mind at all to do it if I could!

Regarding disconnection these are some points.
1st: If a scientologist is connected to someone who is antagonistic to spiritual improvement or Scientology he has a problem as he tryes to improve with Scientology and than he comes home and has someone invalidating his gains, Scientology etc etc. So he needs to handle the situation by giving the correct data on Scientology to the family member. This is done by showing scientology materials, etc etc.
If the attempts to get the family member to accept the fact that someoen has religious freedom don’t work and this family member is still an … the scientology can decide to disconnect from this antagonistic person. The disconnection is done only in rare cases and before this point all the attempts are done to use communication to solve the relation. Unfortunately there are people who don’t want other family members to have their own ideas or to follow the religion they like!

Stephen Paul Reid,
“Fair Game” policy was cancelled about 40 years ago, not 20!

the Fair Game policy was NOT cancelled! L. Ron only wrote that Scientologists should stop declaring people to be under Fair Game, not that they should stop “fair gaming” people.

Frank G — That sounds very psychologically stressful… No person should have to study for any five hours on any subject, it’s just too much. And what with the auditing, getting yelled at, and then being forced to continue all the other work you are involved in, and lack of sleep, malnutrition… I would imagine that any person who’s through with that torture would be more than glad it’s over!

The reason that the media gives Scientology a bad name is because CoS is doing bad things. And what the hell are you babbling on about, “big pharma”? Could you even name what these “big pharma” companies you continue to rave about are? There’s no such thing, it’s only your higher ups trying to scare you into believing their lies.

Explaining to someone what Scientology is != explaining to them that there is such a thing as religious freedom. I agree that there is such a thing as religious freedom, but it should not come at the price of physical, financial, emotional or any other sort of abuse. CoS has a well-documented history of extorting their members through these means, and that’s where a line must be drawn. Do you know why Scientologists are pressured on Disconnecting? Because unless they break off contact with these “SPs”, they might have a way of escaping from the billion-year contract!
What kind of religion is that?!

Thanks for the clarifications Frank and Cara. As for Been There, you’re correct, we will continue to disagree.

Cycle of Action.

Create, Survive, Destory.

Every ex-Scientologists goes through this. You will too.

Enjoy the game.

Cara wrote: Stephen Paul Reid,
“Fair Game” policy was canceled about 40 years ago, not 20!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You guys are so full of Sh**!

If you don’t practice fair game anymore then why do you take picture of protesters, follow them to their cars and try and out their identity?

!!!!!!!!! – again these robots won’t address this they well just try and switch the conversation to something unrelated. – !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is the truth about Fairgame:

FAIR GAME

When “Fair game” is brought up, they (Scientologist)often try to change the subject and for example attack you, asking what criminal acts you have on your conscience or if you are payed by the drug cartels or something. According to Scientology all critics of Scientology are criminals, that’s why they are critics. Nice logic.

For more information on “Fair game” please read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)

http://www.xenu.net/fairgame-e.html

Here is an example of current use of Fair Game:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2008/03/anonymous-scientology-legal-letters-gregg-latham-watkins.php

4. What would you do if someone attacked your religion or philosophy using the same tactics?

Ever here of taking the high road? If you believe in your religion whole heartedly who cares what others say about it. BUT attacking them back, makes you look worse if not evil..

But, this is all IMHO. Don’t sue me.

ANONANON,
The point in taking pictures of protesters is to deter them from doing criminal acts against the Church (as they often tend to do.)

The so called Fair game policy of Scientology is illegal because it is criminal.
Scientology may believe that it can use criminal tactics against whom it considers are its enemies but under a democratic rule of law it becomes liable for criminal prosecution.
Fascists & communists stoop to the lowest levels of fair game policies against those who dare to disagree with them & who oppose them.
As one example look at Zimbabwe where recently one of their government ministers defended Scientology against A German investigation into the subject.

Cara..
then why would you follow them to their car to get their license plate number if they haven’t committed a crime yet and were essentially leaving?

http://laist.com/2008/04/05/charges_dropped.php
Was his cat fair game? Poor kitty.

All you Scientologist here, why don’t you take some time off and watch this video:

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2008/04/jason_beghe_on.php

Anonanon,
You really don’t know anything about police work, do you?

Qoute by Cara: “Anonanon, You really don’t know anything about police work, do you?”

So thats what your doing, POLICE WORK?

How many books did LRH write on that?

Is that what you call “fair game” now, police work?

Are you a police officer?

Did they teach you to be a police officer at the Co$ Police Academy?

How much did they charge you for that course, or was it mandatory?

Word to the Anonymous protesters: Use your heads when you are protesting. The point of this protest is to spread awareness of the cult administration’s abusive exploitative oppressive deceptive sociopathic fear-mongering family-destroying profiteering criminal activities, and by doing this encourage judicial investigation and appropriate repercussions, removal of the cult’s tax-exempt status in America, and most importantly, cessation of these activities. The point is not to instill fear in individual Scientologists. The only people that should be afraid are those responsible for the cult’s misdeeds. And they should be afraid not of intimidation of protesters, but of the societal, legal and organizational consequences that simple mainstream awareness of the cult’s crimes will bring.

ON THE FRONT PAGE OF FOXNEWS.COM:

Jason Beghe: Scientology a ‘Con’

When actor Jason Beghe finally explained Scientology to pal David Duchovny, they fell down laughing.

This is one of the many revelations that come out of Beghe’s seven-part video with Mark Bunker on vimeo.com.

Last week, we brought you actor Jason Beghe’s stunning statements about leaving Scientology. They were part of a three-minute teaser video. After 13 years and a million bucks, Beghe finally decided the cult was “dangerous” and left. By that time, he was estranged from family and friends.

Now Jason’s full video interview with Bunker is available at vimeo.com. And this is what he says: The Scientology process of getting clear is, in Jason’s words, a con.

“You believe it, you invest your time and money.” It’s the getting out that’s painful, Jason says, because people don’t want to believe they’ve been conned. “You can’t be a fool, that’s too much to confront.”

But it’s the story about Duchovny, his childhood friend, that really stands out.

“In ninth grade I met this kid, my best friend. … He came to my class and I said, ‘You and I are going to be friends.’ [That’s] David Duchovny. My best friend. Our relationship was aversely affected [by being in Scientology]. He was very cool but he wasn’t into it. I think his wife … I perceived that she [didn’t like it]. And they were right. He was called a 1-1-SP. It affected our relationship.

“One of the first people I went to see [when I left Scientology] was David. I went over to his house, and we were walking around. We talked about it a little bit. He doesn’t watch ‘South Park’ and doesn’t know about all this stuff. I explained OT to him,” Beghe said of the high level you can pay to attain in the sect.

“I started explaining to him about Xenu and the loyal officers” — a basic story from L. Ron Hubbard’s science fiction. “I couldn’t get a third of the way through the story, and we had our faces on the floor. We were laughing so hard. I mean you couldn’t even talk. It’s so retarded.”

More tomorrow …

Anonanon,
Don’t now get all worked up. Maybe I should have said, police Investigative work, or counter- intelligence or even counter- terrorist- intellingence.

Every individual or group has a right to defend themselves against attack,and what do you do when you get attacked? That’s right, you gather information about the adversary – know your enemy – better too much intelligence than none or too little.

Come on, you should know this; if somebody has doubtful intentions towards you and your activities the first thing you do is find out who is attacking you, why, all the related bits of data that can help you fight back.

“So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will fight without danger in battles.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself” – Sun Tzu, Art of War.

Who says its an attack.

Its a protest.

You don’t see the Walmart employee following the Walmart picketers to their cars and harassing them.. Don’t you think if people got word that Walmart was harassing picketers that all a sudden there would be 10 times the amount of people walking in front of the stores?

If all this wasn’t remotely true you would ignore it.

I would say its these practices C0$ has that creates 50% of its critics.

Your “fair game” or counter – intelligence or even counter – terrorist – intelligence police work makes you look incredibly EVIL.

Cara,

Thank you so much for confirming that Ron was a paranoid schizophrenic that required everyone wihtin the GO and OSA to read Sun Tzu, Art of War.

We’re finally making progress here.

Cara,
You have said the following, and I quote: “Come on, you should know this; if somebody has doubtful intentions towards you and your activities the first thing you do is find out who is attacking you, why, all the related bits of data that can help you fight back.”
So, you are saying that the Church of Scientology wants to fight us, peaceful protestors? That’s a rather agressive thing to do, especially for a religion (that is, assuming that CoS -even is- a religion). L. Ron wrote himself that Scientology was to unite all people — so why create ennemies? And why would it fight back against us, whether through information tactics or hiring Private Investigators, rather than defend themselves and adress our legitimate concerns like adults?

It’s because L. Ron also wrote to “attack, never defend”. This means that unity is to be reched by silencing and destroying any dissidence by all means possible, from people known as “Suppressive Person”. A suppressive person can be, but is not limited to being, someone who is:
-Critical to the CoS belief system and/or its operative systems
-Simply in disagreement with the teachings of Scientology
-Handicapped (either mentally or physically)
-Homosexual (see Jason Beghe’s recent interview)
-Free-spirited
-Refuses to pay thousands of dollars for “Church Services”

The Church of Scientology is a cult. The proof is out there; google it for yourselves. The only reason that CoS is still active today is because it has been capable of silencing critics one by one. But not anymore.

Dear Anonymause,

Have you ever spoken with a scientologist?
Have you ever been in a Scientology church?

When I wake up in the morning and look myself in the mirror I don’t see a monster! I see a person that wants to improve himself and live in a better world! I know that scientologist both staff and public have this desire too.
So all these ideas that Anons have on Scientology are based on lies.
Is there something to improve in Scientology?
Sure! and scientologist are working to create a better Scientology.
On the other side I prefere to be associated with a group that has as goald the creation of “a civilization without insanity, without criminals and without wars where the able can prosper and honest beings can have rights” rather than be part of a group that wants to destroy a relgion.

Frank G,
I have in fact been to an Org, and I have spoken with Scientologists. When I see a Scientologist, I neither see a bad person. I know that you are well-intentionned, however your methods are -not- what is ideal. Stopping people from recieving proper medical/psychiatric care is not right. Telling people that the Church of Scientology has the only answers for you is not right. Spreading information without verifying their validity (ie: just about every claim the Church of Scientology makes on medical and historic events) is not right.
I understand that Scientologists are well-intended, and they are not monsters. However, you can’t create civilization without insanity, criminals or wars if you plan to do it through a totalitarian regime. Notice how it writes “where the able can prosperand honest beings can have rights”? Does that mean that handicapped people can’t prosper, and that people who are dishonest can’t have a second chance (ie: if someone commits a crime, they are to be locked up and stripped of all their rights)?
It’s not all as well-intended as the Church of Scientology likes to portray it.

Also, Scientology is perfect according to its founded, L. Ron Hubbard. There is no modification to be done on the Technology, otherwise that is squirreling, the equivalent of heresy. Wouldn’t it then be impossible to “improve” Scientology?

Anonymous does not try to dismantle the Church of Scientology. I brought up these points because they are pertinent to the Leadership of Scientology. They are the ones who are telling individual, well-intended Scientologists to commit less-than-good deeds. They are the ones who are committing crimes (through their subordinates). The system is what we find is corrupt, not the religious belief. Join the FreeZone — we’ve no problem with them.

Have a good evening,
David

Dear Anoynymause,
If a person needs medical care he is sent to receive the medicines and therapy he needs to do.
In other words if the problem is a phisical problem (of the body) the scientologist is asked to receive medical treatment.
A totally different story is when we are speaking about a spiritual problem. In this case Scientology has all the tools to resolve them.
If a person is for example “depressed” one has to find the real cause of the depression, ie the incident that caused the depression and solve it.

The psychiatric “solution” is to fill up this person with drugs and if he is less “lucky” to give him electroshocks!

So psychiatric treatment is a “no, no”!

There are a lot of easy “assists” that can be done by anyone bring relieve to the majority of spiritual problems. (see the assist processing handboock of Hubbard)

Psichiatrists should use electroshock only on themselves! If elettroshock is a good thing they will benefit from it!

Frank G,

If this is true, then why did the 24 year-old woman from Sydney stab her father and sister to death after her Scientology family took her off her medication? Why did audition, or touch assists, not work for Jeremy Perkins, who stabbed his mother 77 times on Hubbard’s birthday? And why are there so many suicides in Scientology, if the tech really can cure depression?
All of Scientology’s “spiritual tech” is based on superstitious supositions of a science-fiction author who took one (or ten?) too many pills, not to mention that his writtings on Psychiatry are -completely- outdated.

For instance, did you know that electroshock therapy is very, very rarely used and generally frowned upon by the psychiatric community? Or that lobotomies are almost only performed in poor countries because they’re done by doctors who’re unfortunately not properly trained?
You mentionned that if it’s something physical, then the proper treatment is given — why not let people who are depressed get that same treatment? CAT-scans and autopsies/sometimes biopsies reveal that there ARE chemical processes happening in the brain, and that depression can be quite physical. It’s when the depression is physical that medicine is given as a prescription.
Most psychiatrists resort to prescribing medicine as a last means. In most cases, talk therapy is just what people need… something that is very similar to your “auditing”, without the whole inducing-mental-breakdowns-so-we-can-build-you-from-scratch and we’re-recording-all-you-are-saying-so-we-can-blackmail-you-later business happening in the back.
The science of Psychology and Psychiatry is always evolving, and they know that they don’t have the answers for nearly everything — claiming that you do have the answers in today’s prospering, evolving world would be foolish. As humans we realize that there is potential for so much more, and all that is left is to advance and realize that potential… so why is Scientology so stagnant and persistent that its 50 year-old tech is perfect and exemplary in all cases?

Take care,
David

Dear Anoynymause,
We just want to avoid any illegal acts and crimes committed against us.

Cara,
To an extent, that is a reasonable concern for the CoS. Due to the nature that is Anonymous, anyone could do whatever they want. HOWEVER, in the case of Project Chanology, the anonymous protestors, even if not united under a company or group, are united by something much stronger — an ideal, and a goal. We have decided that our protests will be peaceful, and up until now that is what they have been. No attacks upon CoS have been made by Anonymous, and we haven’t been agressive either.
Scientology, however, seems to be on the flip-side of this whole thing. It’s OK for any establishment to set up video cameras on the side of the buildings for security purposes. However, the Church of Scientology is doing something that is INCREDIBLY rude, and creepy — they come up to protestors’ faces and take pictures of them, sometimes inches away from them. Who the fuck does that, seriously? Not to mention that sending private investigators to discover the identity of the anonymous protestors is something that is completely unwarranted.
Do you know what people do when there are crimes they are afraid of? They call the police. And do you know what Anonymous has been doing since the first protest? Calling the police and asking them to please be present. Why would anonymous do that if they intended to commit crimes?
You have to understand that Anonymous is not some kind of monster. Most of us are young, idealistic protestors who saw that something was wrong and decided to intervene. We have a very active sense of humour, and a lot of us would love to discuss common issues between Anonymous and individual Scientologists.

Take care,
David

Cara wrote; “We just want to avoid any illegal acts and crimes committed against us.”

Bullshit! Your scam is coming to an end and you are fighting for your life’s. The internet is riddled with negative press for Co$ and its reaching the mainstream press daily now.

Co$ have done a lot of evil things to its follows, ex-members and critics.

(see: http://whyaretheydead.net/)

The Leadership of Scientology are the ones who are telling individual, well-intended Scientologists to commit less-than-good deeds. They are the ones who are committing crimes (through their subordinates).

Frank G,
Cara,
begodly,
Stephen,
Matt,

Were you ever subjected to a third T.R., (training routing) called “Dear Alice”?

Scientology used this to break you down to reprogram you. Jason beghe mentioned in his interview he was subjected to this for hours on end with the Co$.

In a third T.R., called “Dear Alice” one Scientologist keeps repeating lines from Alice in Wonderland while his partner “acknowledges him.”

*****

The Alice in Wonderland confusion technique is found in this counterintelligence interrogation manual written in 1963:

Alice in Wonderland

The aim of the Alice in Wonderland or confusion technique is to confound the expectations and conditioned reactions of the interrogatee. He is accustomed to a world that makes some sense, at least to him: a world of continuity and logic, a predictable world. He clings to this world to reinforce his identity and powers of resistance.

The confusion technique is designed not only to obliterate the familiar but to replace it with the weird. Although this method can be employed by a single interrogator, it is better adapted to use by two or three. When the subject enters the room, the first interrogator asks a doubletalk question — one which seems straightforward but is essentially nonsensical. Whether the interrogatee tries to answer or not, the second interrogator follows up (interrupting any attempted response) with a wholly unrelated and equally illogical query. Sometimes two or more questions are asked simultaneously. Pitch, tone, and volume of the interrogators’ voices are unrelated to the import of the questions. No pattern of questions and answers is permitted to develop, nor do the questions themselves relate logically to each other. In this strange atmosphere the subject finds that the pattern of speech and thought which he has learned to consider normal have been replaced by an eerie meaninglessness. The interrogatee may start laughing or refuse to take the situation seriously. But as the process continues, day after day if necessary, the subject begins to try to make sense of the situation, which becomes mentally intolerable. Now he is likely to make significant admissions, or even to pour out his story, just to stop the flow of babble which assails him. This technique may be especially effective with the orderly, obstinate type.

Frank G, try this analogy to better understand:

The leaders of Scientology are like Scientologist Charles Manson, brainwashing innocent people to commit their crimes. The followers ‘are like’ the helpless brainwashed naked girls committing murder because their mind was warped and they don’t know any better.

You have been modified. Your reality is an illusion.

Anon a mouse,
I think you could have worded that better. “Fighting for your life’s” implies that there livelyhood is in peril, which is absolutely untrue. What CoS is fighting for right now, is to continue its life (as the Church of Scientology), and to keep the pyramid-scheme scam running. Anonymous’s goal is to dismantle the Church of Scientology in its -present- form. “Present” is the most important word in that sentence… we wouldn’t mind if the CoS kept working, only that it does so without all the abuses, the coherced abortion, chlid labour, brain-washing tactics, hefty price-tags, corrupt management, killings, and simply surreally paranoid behavior.

Dear Anoynymaus (does your name allude to that you want to annoy or that you are annoyed?,)

You seem to be the one sensible and non-raving and ranting of all the “anons” on this thread, so I am answering your post and ignore the others.

What you say sounds fine: the ideals uniting you and so on. You talk like you knew this to true for all of you. I rather doubt that I am afraid. A loose group without structure tends to be unruly and replete with rotten apples who have no respect for the law. If you manage to keep it non-violent and civilized then congrats to

continued…

then congrats and kudos to you.
Ideals are the strongest cohesing force in a group, I agree. Then come rules and policy, procedures and organization and structure. Scientology is built on ideals too, and if you cared to study it and, as you suggest, discuss these with scientologists you would no doubt find appeal in these ideals we embrace.

I am in position to comment on the specific incidents that happened (in America?) that you allude to, about us photographing your faces and cars and so on. I trust you have personal experience of at least one of such incidents as you state it so confidently. In fact I am thousands of miles away and in no official position within the Church (so do not construe my comments to be anything than my personal views, such as that of the Art of War by Sun Tzu.) My curiosity just was piqued by this thread so I decided to partake in it and share my views.

Some “anon” said that your actions are not attacks but protests. Good enough. Freedom of Speech applies. I rather like the verve of the youth in protesting things they perceive as wrong and evil in the world: cluster bombs and arms dealing, environmental and financial criminals, pharmaceutical companies to name a few. I myself protest many of these things and especially the psychiatric/pharmaceutical fraud, torture and murder (in my country last year alone: 32 people died in psychiatric “care” from “treatment” with electroshocks and overmedicating with drug cocktails, drug side effects and medications to treat these side effects,

You know, I tried to stay out of this thread, because I realized it a never ending merry-go-round of point-conter-point.

but alas I can’t..

Cara;

Our “rants” are here to hopefully stop those misguided few having trouble dealing with life from venturing down the road of Scientology without all the “data”, because Scientology does NOT have the answers.

First of all we need to stop calling it a religion. Lafayette Ronald Hubbard turned Dianetics into a religion when the government went after him for practicing medicine without a license. Dianetics is a form of psychotherapy. This is why it is found in the self-help section of book stores. This is also the reason why it gets away with setting up booths in malls and subway stations. This in fact is a technic they use to recruit. “We can help you achieve more!”

Scientology has a lot of resemblances to a cult. They have one a single messianic figure, Lafayette Ronald Hubbard, who’s writings are the true and definitive word. It can’t be altered or disputed. He has ALL the answers. Scientology is based on a totalitarian organization with military uniforms, ranks and structure. They have their own intelligence department and their own justice department. They believe there’s a world wide conspiracy against them enforcing the “us vs the world” mentality. They believe they are the only ones that know the truth, but never tell you what that is – you have to find out “for yourself” by progressing up the Bridge of Total Freedom. Their goal is to convert the entire planet to Scienotlogy, ie. world domination. Lastly, they believe in disconnecting from families and love-ones if they are antagonistic towards the church or its teachings.

L. Ron Hubbard is not a messiah. He was a quack, a witch doctor selling his brand of science fiction as reality, an egomaniac, paranoid psychotic that believed the root of everyone’s trouble is caused by an evil alien ruler by the name of Xenu. He went mad thinking that Xenu’s loyal followers had infiltrated the Church of Scientology. He spent the last years of his life in hiding, much the same way Howard Hughes did. He is now dead. He died of a stroke. He is gone forever. He is not coming back in your lifetime or anyone else. He was not the brilliant man everyone makes him out to be. He was at best a prolific writer and a very wild imagination. He had all the time in the world to write hundreds of books and policy letters because once he began making money from Scientology and Dianetics, he never had to work another day in his life. Fortunately, the stress of his psychosis and persecution by various governments, the US include, drove him in seclusion.

There are hundreds of websites and postings by thousands of ex-members telling you the truth about this deceptive organization. There are hundreds of hours of videos with ex-members sharing their experiences.

Don’t accept a lie in order to obtain freedom. It doesn’t fly. Freedom is truth.

Personally, I know that this “church” will NEVER have the wide spread reach of Christianity with 2.1 Billion adherents or Islam with 1.5 Billion… they won’t even come close. Never will, because they only go after those that can pay… the ABLE, as they call them. They don’t help the sick, the needed or the poor ( that is beyond their stupid ASSISTS that LRH made up ).

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Face it Scientologists. Your objective of CLEARING THE PLANET is a false purpose that needs to be processed. You’ll never do it. It’s idiotic to think so, especially with your “price list” for salvation and so many ex- scientologists preaching the lies and deception they’ve endured while being members. Your numbers are false. You have to deceive everyone that your front groups are not tied to the church, when they are. You cling onto every word Hubbard wrote as it’s the holy scripture, when it isn’t.

Ask yourself, what makes a devoted practitioner not only denounce, but attack the very “religion” they put 10-20 years of their life and money into? They do it because they finally see the real reality – Hubbard was a fake. The anger of being lied too and the time they wasted go beyond anything a current member would know.

Cara, you DON’T have all the data. Because you’re still on the SURVIVE portion of your cycle. When you get to the end and become an ex-scientologists, you will then have all the datum.

Right now you live and breathe Ron. He IS your life. Without him you cease to exist. Your reality is nothing without his books and his words, his quotes, his processes. You can’t handle life without him or without the church. You actually fear being out because you can’t deal with life… period.

You’re not a Thetan driving a body. You’re a human being living a lie because you needed something to blame all of your troubles on. Hubbard gave you that opportunity and you like it because it gives you an easy way out.

It’s not me… It’s my engrams. As soon as I process them, I’ll go CLEAR and my life will be wonderful!! It’s not me, it’s the engrams from my past lives. As soon as I process them, I’ll go CLEAR and my life will THEN be wonderful!! It’s not me, It’s all these body thetans clinging on to me. As soon as I process them, I’ll go OT and my life will be SUPER wonderful!!

Someone said this earlier: Your reality is an illusion. Wake up.

I look forward to seeing you Cara on YouTube one day telling us YOUR story.

Aahhh that feels so much better…

Let’s see how long I last before my next “rant”.

Cara: of course, I expected you to ignore my question regarding “Dear Alice”.

Thanks for telling me your going to ignore my question. IMHO, I don’t expect you to admit to yourself that you have been modified and that your current reality is partially an illusion.

Dear Anon & C,
1st If you think that psychiatry is good, swallow a handful of their “medication” and than we can have the next email the next lifetime. Or if you really like “volts” ask to receive a 300 volts electrick shock for your amusement.

2nd. On the dear alice. The TRs, training routines are drills on the parts of the communication formula. The book “Alice in wonderland” is used because it has a lot of “statements” with different “tone levels” in them and so are used do drill the “origination” part of the communicaion formula and the “acknoledgement of the communication”. The TRs is one of the best courses in Scientology as you improve your ability to communicate.

3rd. Regarding Clearing the Planet. Well there are religions around that have been here for more than 2000 years and they have not “cleared” anything. Under them we have had hundred of wars and hundreds of millions of deaths. If Scientologist would have been heads of government in the 20th century we wouldn’t have had any WW1 or WW2! That’s for sure! Other common religions believe in a lot of “strange” sotries. Much more weird than they can find in any Scientology book! (Have you read the Apocalypse…)
Will this planet be a “cleared planet”? Scientology is in more than 100 countries and probably this is a 1st for a religion being born only 53 years ago. Step by step a better world will be build and I am sure that a lot of work is being done by Scientology executives to increase the number of people becoming clear.
We have to work to improve the communication between Countries avoiding in this way wars. The production of agricoltural product need to increase to bring people out of famine. Young people need to be made aware of the effects of drugs and rehabilitated. … and a lot of other things… and by the way Scientology has tools and organizations that are working on these projects.

Frank G.. reading your post, you are completely lost.

1.

1. Only one discussing psychiatry is you.

2. “Dear Alice” is brain washing… if they told you it improves your communication skills regarding Co$… so be it. The confusion technique is designed not only to obliterate the familiar but to replace it with the weird. You have been modified and your reality is an illusion.

3. Clearing the planet is Co$ bull. No other religion is making that a goal or a claim. Most other religion’s work on building a stronger family. Your response is just silly.

Niece of Scientology Leader to Speak Out on Nightline Tonight April 24, 2008

Wooo Hoooo

The mother of all Ex-Scientologists

COB’s own niece… Not how could that happen?

Hummmm… Cycle of Action kids… Cycle of Action.

Ahhh It feels so good to right!!

Man I’m good.

While Anonymous may not be speaking about psychiatry there are psychiatrists who have joined in with bigots, hackers and taggers to “defend” their “beliefs”. Scientologists are not preventing anybody except Scientologists from using psychiatric drugs unless you are talking about abuse hotlines, public education, the repeal of laws which force people to take psychiatric drugs or require students to take them in order to continue in school. The examples of children killing their parents when they were denied their prescriptions occurred after they had been taking these drugs for awhile and this is a typical scenario.

In response to some of the various statements regarding psychiatry:

“Almost every person, who sees a psychiatrist at the moment, is prescribed at least one sort of psychotropic drug”
http://www.critpsynet.freeuk.com/Moncrieff.htm

Try out vitamin therapy as an “alternative to psychotropics” at http://www.drpodell.org for virtually any mental condition before resorting to a psychotropic prescription.

Learn about “The dark side of psychiatric drugs”
http://www.stopshrinks.org/reading_room/drugs/dark_side_1.htm

“biopsychiatry is a belief system, no more scientifically valid than any religion or philosophy…106,000 Americans died in 1994 from medications that were administered properly…”
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/abolish.htm

“Most people think psychosurgery, or lobotomy, is not done anymore…”
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/psychosu.htm

I would just about bet that I could support the refutation of any claims whatsoever made by a psychiatrist without going to a Scientology web-site.

Dear Anon,
1- Some other anon said psychiatry was good so I commented on that.
2- Evidently you have never seen the pack of the TRs course. You have never read it, so your conclusions are based on fixed ideas and false data.
3- Eh? Well they don’t call it “clearing”. If I am not wrong the christian religion would like to have a paradise on Earth. That would be a final goal. A paradise on Earth is not a far concept than a “cleared planet”. Clear planet includes that people are not aberrated and work together towards pro survival goals. It would be a planet without insanity, without wars and without criminals.

Frank G

regarding 2. (dear alice)

L Ron Hubbard’s Use of the “Confusion Technique” to Induce Hypnosis in Scientology.

Here is a link to a lecture LRH gave in 1952 regarding Hypnosis, Dear Alice and the use of the confusion technique with the E-meter.

http://www.lermanet.com/exit/confusion-technique.htm

Proof you have been hypnotized & your reality modified with “Dear Alice”.

When considering what hypnotic suggestions are delivered to Scientologists through this repetitive technique – living past lives, psychiatry is bad, or having space aliens in the body – whatever implantation occurs – the confusion technique teaches members something else.

Scientologists start inducing a state of confusion in their subjects (marks) by raising their anxieties with the evaluation of the personality test. The Scientologists attempt to render their marks’ minds anxious and confused and “teach” them they need Scientology.

Same thing with the cult’s “Dissemination Drill.” Finding the marks’ “ruin” raises their anxieties. With their minds anxious and confused, the marks are then “taught,” or “brought to understanding” that Scientology can handle the “ruin.”

Hi, I’d just like to start by warning you guys that this will be a several-post comment, each adressing to a different individual. Thank you!

Cara,
Sorry for taking such a long time to reply, I’ve been rather busy with the real life. Hope you aren’t disengaged from conversation at this point…
I’d like to assure you that it is Anonymous’ agenda to continue keeping the protests on a peaceful level, and that if any dissidence should occur, it is also our agenda to take these individuals out of the crowd, expose them and hand them over to the police on a silver platter.
I am going to risk and say that there isn’t a need for a hierarchy in anything… in an ideal society, everyone has a voice, and everyone can have authority on a situation, if the collective agrees upon it. And that is what Anonymous is. I find it’s best described as a school of fish, coming together and splitting apart whenever necessary. The ideals keep us together, and they also split us up; there is no hierarchy.
However, one must understand that the means do not justify the end. Anonymous began (and will not deny!) by DDoSing the CoS. Anonymous realized that this was wrong (after the help from a certain wise beard), and took a legal, peaceful initiative. CoS, however, uses less-than-legal and unethical practices to reach its practices. L. Ron said that Scientology helps all able men; what about unable men? Are homosexuals unable, also? I’ve read from ex-scientologists (some who were in as long as 30 years) that CoS tries to “cure” them, and I’ve heard from another ex-Scientologists that the Church tried to force her to disconnect with her son simply because he was handicapped. These practices, which –could- lead to a better world, are simply not right. That is why we protest.

I understand that you are in no position to comment on them, and I am also glad that you don’t deny these things happening. There is a lot of proof that Scientologists are asked by their leaders to photograph and follow the peaceful protesters. This video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TmCvYp96dQ ) is an example. And although the philosophy of Sun Tzu might be yours, it is also a documented fact that Staff members are required to read this book and apply it, whether they agree with its principles or not. Like I mentioned earlier, I simply don’t believe that it is a very Church-like thing to do, and is in fact quite menacing.
I’ve seen you posting on a few articles, actually. You seem to be discussing a lot :B

Could I please ask for some proof of these 32 electroshock-related deaths? I have a very hard time believing this, for I know that the use of such “therapeutic” methods has been abandoned for over 30 years now, at least in most technologically advanced countries, where psychiatry is only practice by MDs with a degree in psychology, practicing under tight regulations. These same regulations make it so that an individual must undergo a series of tests (both written and medical) before being prescribed medicine.
I’d like to ask you, what do you think is so evil, or fraudulent, about the psychiatry industry? I can understand that there is an issue, especially in the States, with the liberal prescription of such medicine as antidepressants and excitants that counteract ADD. The problem isn’t as severe as the media would like to portray it, though, and there are many more neurological instabilities than those two; they’re just the most portrayed. Psychiatry does help a lot of people who need it, and even people who don’t need it (for instance, through the placebo effect, which is found in anything and everything from medicine to religious beliefs).
Also, most medicinal side-effects are hardly lethal; if they are, that is because the risk of it happening outweight the benefit, meaning that whoever is taking them is very sick (and would probably die in either case, the medicine allowing them to prolong their lives and live them more sensibly. )

There are a lot of non-raving Anons on the boards, it’s just that most of them like to take an aggressive stance. However, what goes around comes around; indirectly calling them insensible and raving and ranting isn’t the best way to warrant respect, nor to establish a proper communication setting.

Until next time, take care,
David

(PS: my name is only but another deviation from the Anonymous, nothing more.)

Curiouser,
I just have this to say: you are completely taking those website’s texts out of context. How do I know this?
” No Scientologists, please: Volunteers will be asked for assurance they are not affiliated with the “Church” of Scientology or its Citizen’s Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), which have publicized the harm done by psychiatry but which we want no affiliation with.”
Posted on the front-page of http://www.antipsychiatry.org .Why would they say that, now, hmm? If anything, the website gives me more of an alarmist feel; that, especially in the states, a lot of people are misdiagnosed. This problem isn’t solved by banning Psychiatry; it’s solved by applying more strict conditions and restrictions, which is a hard thing to do because there are so many Americans for so little doctors. I personally do believe that there should be a new system, and it’s a well-known fact that Psychiatry does not have all the answers! It does not claim to cure, only to treat (which is why that website, itself, states “treatment” instead of “curing”), and in most cases only in part. The science of psychiatry knows that there is along way to go, and a good psychiatrist will never claim to know all the answers…
… Conversely, Scientology likes to say that it does. This is blatantly untrue, as there are so many cases of ex-scientologists coming out with stories of abuses and unethical practices, enough to give you nightmares. Of course all religions have “detractors” (ie, people who quit), but how many come out with such terrible stories? Not all that many.
The tech is not perfect, you’d see for yourself if you opened your eyes.

Take care,
David

Dear Anon,
Regarding “Dear Alice”.
A Person is hypnotized if his attention is fixed in something and can’t get it off from it.
To remedy this one just needs be extroverted!
The communication drills that you can find in the chapter 5 of the “Scientology Handbook”, very likeley also in your local library, have the purpose of increasing the ability to communicate with people and they extrovert the individual.
The statement “Dear Alice drills are hypnotizing people” definitely rank in the top 5 most laughable statement done against Scientology.

There are also a full set of drills called “objective processes” that take help to bring the attention of the individual out towards the environment… I loved them!

Frank G Qoute “The statement “Dear Alice drills are hypnotizing people” definitely rank in the top 5 most laughable statement done against Scientology.”

Why don’t you save the rest of us the time and list the other 4 most laughable statements.

If you are having distressing problems in your life, you can use laughter as a coping mechanism. Troubles seem to fade into the background when you are laughing. It is a way to help you feel more in control of your problems by lessening your feelings of helplessness.

If you been Modified, It’s an illusion, an your in between . . .

TV Show – Law and Order goes after Scientology FairGame Policy!!

Law & Order “Bogeyman” Airdate April 30, 2008 10:00 PM ET

THE DEATH OF A NOVELIST LEADS THE DETECTIVES TO SUSPECT SOME INVOLVEMNT FROM A CONTROVERSIAL CULT BUT PROSECUTING THIS CASE PROVES TO BE A CHALLENGE

A novelist is found dead in her car, which appears to be a suicide at first inspection, but Detectives Cyrus Lupo (Jeremy Sisto) and Kevin Bernard (Anthony Anderson) have reason to believe a cult known as “Systemotics” is involved. The victim’s husband, Bradley Cameron (guest star Daniel London) explains to the detectives that he and his wife were paranoid that members of the cult had been trailing them recently. However, Bradley comes under suspicion as the detectives begin to chip away at his alibi. When the case goes to trial, ADA Michael Cutter (Linus Roache) has trouble prosecuting his case when several members of the jury fear for their own safety. Sam Waterston, Epatha Merkerson, and Alana De La Garza also star

Amazing how anyone in Scientology who dies can be because they are supposedly PTS but when the late Ron Hubbard died he supposedly did this on purpose to continue doing research.
Amazing how people buy into this crap.
Only the late Hubbard would not subscribe to his own science fantasies that others are forced to believe.
I think that Scientologists would be better suited on another planet where they could all be saved or solved as thetans together.
Not unlike Jehovah Witnesses where supposedly only a certain amount can go to heaven.

Scientologists die all the time, just like other people who have a meat body. Having a nut case harrassing you everyday sometimes predisposes people to more accidents and illness. That’s what PTS is, Potential Trouble Source. In that condition, the person doesn’t operate as well.

Scientologists are not trying to go to heaven or some other invisible fantasy land. We are helping people right here to get out of the hellish conditions of war, poverty, and insanity that have plagued this planet.

Stephen,

If you’re going to be a Scientology, then do it right. Don’t do it half-ass.

The aims of Scientology is:

A civilization without insanity, without criminals and without war, where the able can prosper and honest beings can have rights, and where man is free to rise to greater heights, are the aims of Scientology

Don’t insert poverty into it.

Scientology doesn’t care about resolving homelessness, poverty, hunger, helping the disabled, finding a cure for diseases that are 1.1 like AIDS or what LRH called psychosomatic such as cancer.

You want to help the ABLE, become MORE able.

Who are the able? The ones that can either work for the church or pay the fix donantion costs for auditing, courses, books, CDs and DVDs.

And please..please.. please don’t tell me about your stupid ASSISTS because none of them will house, feed or clothe a starving mother of 2. None of them will help a father of 4 who is dying of cancer. And they definitely can’t cure AIDS.

If they did, then sir, I’d humbly apologize for all my statements, go back to the church and be the first one singing it’s praises.

Stephen, when you die your not going to a between life station on Mars or Venus. Recuriting people into the church is not really helping, even if you think it is.

Come back to present time, help here.. help now.

Dear Anon,
Let me try to make a list of the most stupid things said on Scientology:

1: The drills of Alice in Wonderland are hypnotizing people.
2- Scientologist worship the god Xenu.
3- Scientology is not a religion.
4- Scientology is a sect.
5- It is hard to go out from Scientology.

Comments
1a- … no comment … to moronic to comment!
2a- (Never heard of Xenu in 20 years in Scientology. Even if LRH mentions him in one of his research tapes definitely it is not a key element)
3a- A true religion should work to improve a person as a spiritual being. All the training and processing in Scientology is aimed at this!
4a- A sect is a group that disagreed with an earlier religion and created a new group. This does not apply to Scientology as it was the work of Ron Hubbard. Also if we use as definition of sect a “closed group” that does not apply as any person can go to a church a Scientology and start a course the same day. Also Scientolgy does not try to hide as it is working to get itself known by getting Scientology books in public libraries, promotion etc.
5a- In my opinion a person is “out” of Scientology to the degree that he does not apply Scientology to his life. So a “scientologist” that does not apply Scientology is not really a scientologist. So going “in” or “out” of Scientology it is very easy. If one applies it he is “in” if he doesn’t he is to that degree “out”.

David (a.k.a Anoynymause), Your comments don’t seem to have the typical anonymousity flavor. You don’t seem to be doing this for the LULZ. You also don’t quite sound like a psychiatrist, but rather a student, probably a college student. I’ve been a student too and I have completed more than one degree. I didn’t much study psychiatry or medicine for that matter but I know how to search the internet. I searched the internet extensively before I became a Scientologist including all the negative stuff. After you look at it long enough and get more and more of the whole story I was able to see through it. I am now a Scientologists training to be an auditor.

At one time, I had doubts that psychiatry did’t actually help but then I searched the internet, read newspapers and listened to talk radio. This information against psychiatry often provided by other psychiatrists is so immense that it dwarfs what Scientologists have to say. So I wonder what do you mean that a psychiatrist treats and doesn’t cure? I read about Freud and how he actually did cure people but then he was a psychologist and was doing “talk therapy”. Did you know that Freudian theory inspired LRH to develop the original Dianetics. (BTW, Scientology is not just Dianetics renamed and made into a religion) So a psychiatrist doesn’t cure but treats, but isn’t a psychiatrist a psychologist with a medical degree. Hmm! Currently they treat mostly with prescription psychotropics, not so much ECT and psychosurgery. BTW, psychosurgery is where instead of taking chunks out of the prefontal lobe of the brain, they just induce lesions on the prefontal lobes using electricity. But this procedure turns people into vegetables too. It sounds like a so much more sophisticated version of ECT and lobotomy. The people at the anti-psychiatry sites call psychotropics “chemical straightjackets” and “chemical lobotomies” and they believe they make people crazier so that when they stop taking them they do crazy things like shooting up schools. Most Scientologists know this happens to people but when its their own family they want to take them off anyway because they no what it’s doing.

If Scientology was perfect then they would have a cure for people who have become crazy from taking psychotropics but they don’t. If such people are audited they are called “illegal PCs”, because they are at best very difficult to audit. Not every drug does this and in fact street drugs such as marijuana, crack, LSD, don’t usually do this. I don’t actually recall LRH ever using the words perfect to describe Scientology. I know he used very hopeful words in Dianetics MSMH and he spent many years developing writing many tomes on the subject. I know that as I traverse the bridge my stuff gets handled. As an auditor I have many times handled other people’s stuff often by going into past lives. They often go exterior. There are no guarantees that it will work. It is actually against the auditor’s code to promise anybody will get results. Scientology is not a cure for physical illness but it is a cure for psychosomatic illness and I’m not going to claim that all physical illness is psychosomatic. The first thing for a person to do who has a physical illness is to get medical services. After that they can benefit from Scientology assists and other handlings. Go to any Scientology mission or Org and after they have been assured that any needed medical handlins have been performed will give you an assit. Some people confuse the medical services of psychiatrists with regular medical doctors. Psychiatrists claim they can help people mentally by prescribing psychotropics. Unfortunately, even as perfect as Scientology is, it requires perfect implementation by people, which requires externsive training and facilities which requires money and thus you have auditing fees. There are people who have trained like I am doing and they deliver auditing outside the church. They usually advertises only by word of mouth. They get plenty of business from people who want the auditing but don’t want to go to a CoS to get it. These people don’t want to go to a psychiatrist or even a psychologist. Probably because they see what happened to their friends or they went to psychologists and didn’t get much result or they don’t want to be stigmatized by “received mental treatment”. They don’t go to the CoS to get auditing because they are afraid of what their friends will think. They are afriad of the CoS. Why, because of what they have been told.

I don’t know the reason why a few people out of many have a bad experience with Scientology. I know many who have really great experience all the way up the bridge. It is my opinion that Scientology is not for every one. There are many other religions. When a person does get involved in a religion they shouldn’t do it halfway. They need to commit time and money on a regular basis. If we could get everybody to do that the world would be an incredibly better place. Scientology requires commitment beyond what most people are willing and in many cases beyond what they are even capable of. No one should go into it with uninformed commitment. The internet is not a good place to get informed but that is what people will do now and they shouldn’t take just a shallow look and believe whatever other people are saying. These people on the internet really do have an agenda just like most people on the internet even if it isn’t about making money.

take care

The late Hubbard wrote millions of words that established his subject of knowledge that he preferred for tax exemption to call a religion
The reports about the life & teachings of Jesus are not of many words.
The actions of Jesus spoke louder than the words.
Despite how the many divisions of Christianity make rituals out of the life of Jesus it can still be found thru such life the real truth that can set the spirit free.

Moneen,

Your words are so true.

Hubbard was nothing more than a con man. A false prophet eager to get into people’s minds and pockets.

Unfortunately, he could write reams of useless non-sense because until Dianetics he had to make his living writing for a “penny-a-word”. He had perfected the skill because he had no other income other than a small Navy pension.

It’s sad. I really do feel for them. They’ve lost their way and are confused. It’s hard for them to deal with it right now as they see everything they believe to be true crumbling down around them.

But don’t worry, the light will shine upon them one day and they will see again.

I have faith and trust they will.

It may take time for them to learn the truth about their “religion”, but eventually everyone does.

Their turn will come one day as well.

Maybe not tomorrow, but someday.

And when that day is here, they’ll remember all the ex-member postings and wonder “Why didn’t I listen?”

Until then, there’s nothing we can say to them to make them change their minds.

I haven’t seen a Tom Cruise movie in at least 10 years.. (Thank God!)

Everyone needs to Boycott ANY project by ANY celebrity that uses their celebrity power to promote this destructive cult garbage!

Anonymous needs to take their PROTESTS to all of these Co$ celebrity movie premiers and events. We are Legion! Anytime time Tom Cruise shows up anywhere to promote anything, we need to be there telling the world what a douchetard he & the Co$ really are! Expect us!

Thousands of years of hate mongering against races, religions, philosophies. Where has it gotten us?

Stop playing the religious bigot card. You all know the Co$ is nothing more then a brainwashing pyramid scam mascaraing as a religion for tax exempt status.

Nobody feels sorry for you.

(You fools cry 1000′s years of hate mongering against religion and then in OT-VIII you claim Jesus was a pedophile. WTF)

Anti-Christian beliefs of Scientology are found, among other places, in secret documents called OT VIII. According to Jesse Prince , the original OT VIII is part of the most secret Scientology initiation in which the initiate is told that Hubbard was the anti-Christ and that the Jesus was not a holy person, but rather a pedophile. Few people got through OT VIII before Scientology withdrew and modified it. It had caused so many problems with those who read it that it was deemed too dangerous. One long time member who passed all security clearances to reach OT VIII, freaked out on OT VIII and quit Scientology on the spot! Jesse Prince reports that even Miscavige had severe doubts about releasing this secret of secrets.

http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/celebrities_con.html <–source (read the other damaging info here also)

What are you two smoking? You will lose any credibility that you might have if the lies are too outrageous.

Only one losing credibility here is the Co$ & I know you can feel it Stephen.

Search “Jesus pedophile Scientology” and you well find 69,200 web pages. We couldn’t make this stuff up. We’ll leave that up to the professional science fiction writer’s like L Ron Hubbard.

Curiouser…

Your entire statement is completely head-splitting. Through all the contradictions, the run-on topics, the fallacy of your arguments, I re-read again and again to no avail.

Research the internet to make your opinion, but don’t trust it. Go to the CoS to make your opinion, but you’ve never taken a psychology/psychiatry classes yet have a strong opinion on the subject, you don’t recall Hubbard saying Scientology was perfect, but you call it perfect later on…
I’m not even going to try to make sense out of any of it. If you really want to hold a discussion with me, please learn how to properly structure your argument so that it’s compelling and understandable.
It feels as though all you did was try to throw me off with as much stuff as you knew without any real substance. I’m sorry if this offends you, but it is my personal judgement and understanding of the situation.

May Mudkips be with you,
David

SUOMYNONA,

where has this religious persecution gotten us? In a technologically advanced and free world, that’s where. If religion and government hadn’t seperated, there wouldn’t be any other religion than whichever’s controlling government (which would’ve probably been catholism).
Also, if you slander your opponent rather than put up an intelligent argument, you are losing credibility. If you really want to render your “adversary” (quotations, because it’s meant in a figurative tone) invalid, you must use resources yourself.

David,

By making the statement “as perfect as Scientology is” I did not intend a meaning of perfection. One thing I have learned is that the closer to perfection that an auditor perfection the better the results are. Again, I don’t mean to imply that Scientology is perfect but its successful implementation is only limited to the degree of perfection of its implementation.

I also don’t mean to imply that Scientology is better or more perfect than other religions. It would be comparing apples to oranges. Rather that it has something valuable to offer as other religions do. I have participated in other religions which have benefitted me considerably in their various ways. It is not just the code of a Scientologists that drives me to have respect for other religions in spite of their faults by which I include Catholicism (the universal church), Kaballah, Islam, Muslim, Judaism, Tantric Church, the mystery schools, etc. Each have their faults, mostly with their adherents and their benefits which are not just provided by their adherents. If I am to criticize any religion I would only do it if it was done respectfully. About the only one I leave out would be the Church of Satan, those which lead to cannibalism, human sacrifice, and molestation/incest. Having said that I wish to state that the FLDS is not just about polygamy with underage girls and that their original intent was to remain true to the fundamental LDS beliefs which I have trouble believing included marriage to underage girls. I liken different religions to the spokes of a bicycle wheel, each of which leads to the same hub. And also like the blind men checking out an elephant’s different parts and arriving at a different part of the truth.

I actually have studied psychology in college courses and read books on Freudian Analysis though it was not extensive. Having originally doubted that the psychotropic prescriptions were actually harmful I researched and I have yet to find even a psychiatric publication that states that these do anything more than “manage” the mental crisis. Typically I find warnings by psychiatry publications of physical side effects even deadly ones. As I read the various books of LRH as he was developing Dianetics I recognize the influence of Freud. I’m actually surprised that people don’t accuse of hime of stealing it from Freud and just repackaging it. But he did give credit to Freud where credit was due. Now while Scientology was more or less discovered during the development of Dianetics it is at best a distant cousin of Dianetics as I previously discussed.

BTW, did you know that the root word of psychiatry, psyche, is synonomous with soul, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/psyche so that both psychology and psychiatry would both involve the soul. From this I really have trouble why a psychologist has to get a medical degree to acquire the title of psychiatrists. There would be one good reason if they used their medical degree to rule out physical causes of a persons mental crises. In fact there are psychiatrists who have made some interesting discoveries. One of them, Malcolm N. McLeod, discovered that depression was better treated with chromium than with lithium. Other doctor http://www.drpodell.org promotes that vitamins are actually crucial to achieve good mental health. LRH himself having learned this from doctors and nutritionists and then confirmed in practice, encourages vitamin consumption in his writings and not just for purification rundown.

Dear Anons,
The key here is that if you really want to know what Scientology is you need to study and apply it!
Do the following:
1- Clear up you mind from any anti-Scientology or pro-Scientology statements.
2- Go to your local library and get a book called “Scientology Handbook”.
3- Read it and see if the data in it can be applied in your life.
4- Decide for yourself if it is better to help or not Scientology.

ps: I’m splitting this post in three parts because it’s apparently too big…

Curiouser,

What did you mean by saying that, then? I’d like to have some clarification, as to avoid false representations by myself and to better understand what it is you’re trying to communicate to me and anyone else reading. And I think you might’ve fumbled with that second sentence; “… the closer to perfection that an auditor perfection the better…” Did you mean to write perfection twice?
Correct me if I’m misunderstanding, but you’re saying that the degree of success that Scientology (I’m assuming auditing here) has on the person who’s learning Scientology, is limited to the degree of success that the Auditor had learned to audit? Or are you referring to a different kind of implementation?

I would like to reiterate that Project Chanology is not about the belief systems of any religion, including Scientology. What Anonymous is protesting and trying to inform the public about, is the fact that the leadership in Scientology is abuse, corrupt, and that the Church of Scientology is constructed like a pyramid scheme, bait-and-switch methods included. We have no qualms with the FreeZoners, who practice the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard without participating in the corrupt activities and abuses of the CoS’s leadership. (I know they’re not “free” to participate/join, but they don’t demand you pay up to 500, 000$ for everything.)
Again, what we protest is the Church of Scientology’s abuses practices, such as Disconnection, the coerced abortion in the Sea Org, its corporate-like structure (billion year contract and endless other contracts, anyone?), the reported physical abuses of its members, the carelessness of the leaders for their followers (blue asbestos? nah, they don’t need to know about that), etc.
Just the same, I have no problem with the Catholic Church’s beliefs, but I do contest their banning of condoms and other contraceptives in Africa and their discouraging of these elsewhere.

part two:

“I didn’t much study psychiatry or medicine for that matter but I know how to search the internet.” You’re contradicting yourself again. Also, Freud is a terrible read for learning psychology. His principles were completely unfounded, only supported by his introspective methods. There is absolutely no way to prove that the ig, ego and superego exist. Thanatos and Eros are names for Gods, which completely alienates scientific rigour, the sexual stages are unclear and cannot be proven, with many exceptions… Freud is repudiated by most psychologists nowadays. It’s not a good idea to read studies that are almost 100 years old for any science (they didn’t even know the proton existed 100 years ago!) if you want to know what it’s about today. It’s always fun to know its history and how it’s developed, changed course and found new theories to explain what couldn’t be, but it’s not something by which you should base your entire understanding of the science.
Also, we don’t say that Hubbard stole Dianetics/Scientology from Freud… rather, he stole it (pretty much completely) from Dr. A. Nordenholz, who originally published his book, Scientology, in 1934.
Also, no psychologist or psychiatrist with any credibility would claim to be able to cure anyone. Psychology and psychiatry are meant to be therapeutic, as in they treat. You can’t just “cure” a chemical imbalancement, it’s not a disease. You can however treat it with the proper drugs. Psychiatry/psychology are very young sciences, however, and they still have a long way to go before being able to claim that their treatments are certain, well-founded, and unfailable; just about everything about it is still being debated, and still being elaborated, studied, discussed, researched and so on. So why ban it while it has this incredible potential for helping people? Just like your Scientology, Psychology/Psychiatry has helped a lot of people, and has unfortunate effects on some people. However, unlike Scientology, psychiatry/psychology will not deny that their methods can sometimes be more hurtful than helpful, and they’ve treated millions of people (either through therapy sessions, like talk therapy, or prescriptions).

It’s possible to derive the meaning of something through its name, but now always. For instance, the horned toad isn’t a toad at all. Just the same goes for psych.
As for your study with Mr. McLeod, this just goes to show that psychology/psychiatry is, indeed, an evolving science. However, you seem to be misinterpreted his study, and his results. His research finds that Chromium might help some patients more than lithium when they are suffering atypical cases of depression, and even then only half of his patients responded positively (though it’s nice that the other half did not respond negatively).
On the subject of vitamins, it’s been a known fact that vitamins are an important part of anyone’s health for ages! If you’re physically unhealthy or unfit, your brain follows suit (proving that your mental health is at least in part controlled by physical variables. However, too much of a good thing leads to bad things. For instance, L. Ron says that up to 5000mg of Niacin daily are necessary, while the recommended dosage by Health Canada is of 16mg/day. Vitamins come in very small quantities in food, which is normal, because you need very little. When you take too many vitamins, your body responds negatively. For instance, did you know that taking over 2grams of Niacin (or over 2000mg) daily will give you liver damage, birth defects, cardiac arrhythmias, and so on? Taking a handful of vitamins is the same as taking a handful of prescribed medicine, or a handful of “street” drugs, or a handful of anything that’s meant to be taken in small dosage; it’s just not healthy.

Dear Anoynymause,

Just a comment on the last paragraph.

“Taking a handful of vitamins is the same as taking a handful of prescribed medicine, or a handful of “street” drugs, or a handful of anything that’s meant to be taken in small dosage; it’s just not healthy.”

We can do a test right now.

I take 200mg of B1, 500 mg of vitamin C, some B complex and you take some “Ritalin”, “LSD” and some other “psychiatric medicine” every day.

Actually you can also chose which “psychitric treatment” to take. I will take my pack of vitamins for a while and then we will meet…

Hope to see you there!

Scientology ‘methods’ proscribed by L Ron Hubbard involve, among others, taking Niacin (nicotinic acid) at dosages known to cause liver failure.

Hubbard also sold his niacin pills as a cure for cancer, until the FDA shut him down for that quackery.

That’s when he learned he could market his junk more freely as a ‘religion’ or ‘alternative therapy’ than as real medicine or science, since the latter has pesky requirements like having to actually WORK.

Frank G,

are you recommending that I take LSD? So you, as a scientologists, are recommending me to take illegal “street” drugs? Oh wow, Frank, that could be a criminal offence, depending on what state you live in…
Let it be known that Scientologists tell people to take illegal drugs!

Not that I can’t help but notice that you wrote all those in brackets, you’re probably trying to avoid being brought into a court of law… oh wow, what failure.

Both medicine and vitamins come with recommended daily dosages. These dosages are evaluated based on hundreds if not thousands of clinical trials, and they are backed by huge and reputable companies and organisations. Are you suggesting that we, instead, follow the system of your founder, L. Ron Hubbard, one man who had absolutely no scientific rigour?
You would be absolutely foolish to advise anyone to take dosages recommended based on the results of a single person, or to recommended someone take things they do not need.

Also, enjoy your diarrhea.

Beleive it or not, one side of this argument is completely true, and the other side is just rantings from weird people. It must be difficult for an observer to figure this out. Kind of like the centuries old discussions of whether the earth was round or flat. There were wild accusations coming from the flat side that just couldn’t be discarded until someone could observe the truth for themselves. Be adventurous. Take a trip on a ship to a faraway place and find out for yourself.

i’d rather not be brainwashed thankyou!!

the public need to be warned about that stupid american cult. it’s more than mad, check google or youtube. search for scientology

search for scientrollogy and see what that gets you!!!!

For anyone with a job, a life or a wife

Scientology is not a religion, it’s a vicious self-help scam that leaves a trail of victims in it’s wake, and then uses the techniques of organized crime to deter those same victims from speaking out.

Thankfully many countries recognize this, and have banned it as a result. Unfortunately, money, secrecy and the misapprehension that they’re just a wacky cult, have gone an awful long way in protecting them.

The media does seem to finally be waking from it’s 50 year slumber, and it’s looking increasingly likely that this business that’s shattered so many lives, will finally be put to bed; with the people at the top – who knowingly conspired to perpetuate it – called to account and jailed, some of them no doubt for a very long time if even half of the allegations against them are true.

Nice analysis, Stephen.

I think Frank G’s argument is very bad and sad at the same time. Scientology claims it to be a “real” science and a religion at the same time. I dont see that as possible, you cannot have it both ways. I have read dianetics and it gave me headaches for hours at a time. Its a shame that scientology hates psychology; Dianetics is a junk science and psychology is actually real. You dont see colleges running to your organization, which is hoarding this knowledge, and demanding it taught in classrooms.

Paul,

it’s funny, beacuse your statement can represent both sides of the argument. And you know what? I strongly urge anyone who’s curiousity has been aroused to study BOTH sides of the coin. Visit the CoS websites, see what they’ve to say — then visit the Anonymous and Old-Guard critic’s websites. Make up your own mind, and remember that google is your friend.

Dear Anoynymause,
Let me be even more clear…
1st. Psichiatrists have defined LSD a “fantastic chimical compound” so if you trust them…
2nd. There are thousnads of adverse effects caused by psichiatric “medicines”. Why these companies don’t take them off the market? The reasons are that:
a- Their goal is just to make money.
b- Pharmaceutical companies are financing the FDA… that should control these pills.

Another point on vitamins.
The “minimum value” of vitamins is just a minimum. That means that lower than that you can get diseases so one person should get more than that value.

Vitamins needs to be balanced. If one takes a great amount of one kind, (that usually works together with another) this can cause a deficency of the second one.

When I have done the “purification rundown”, towards the end, I have taken 5,000 mg of niacin a day (balanced with all the other vitamins) and I had very good results with this program. (I saw sunburns going off, ie. the exat areas where I was sunburned 20 years before became at first red and than the skin became clear again. In other words radiations that were “stuck” in the body came off).

Now per the FDA I should take 20 (twenty) mg of niacin a day…. What’s their real goal? Is it that they try to cause a deficiency of vitamins in the population so that people are more likely to get sick so they need to get “treated”?

Is it that the fact that Scientologist are asked not to take harmful drugs, take vitamins and have a balance diet etc ie asking people to stay healthy goes in the face of the plans of the “big pharma-FDA-psichiatric” alliance?

read

http://xenu.net
http://whywepotest.net
http://exscientologykids.net

before you accept the free test

yeah,

purification rundown
introspection rundown

all worth 10 minutes on google brfore you teke the free test or read their rubbish

IMHO – Scientology is Evil and Tom Cruise practices Black Magic.

“According to Ron Jr., his father considered himself to be the one ‘who came after’; that he was Crowley’s successor; that he had taken on the mantle of the ‘Great Beast’. He told him that Scientology actually began on December the Ist, 1947. This was the day Aleister Crowley died.”
- Brent Corydon, Messiah or Madman

Read the following quotes to draw your own conclusions.

“The whole and sole object of all true magickal training is to become free from every kind of limitation.”
- Aleister Crowley, Magick in Theory and Practice

“Our whole activity tends to make an individual completely independent of any limitation.”
- L. Ron Hubbard, Philadelphia Doctorate Course lecture (December, 1952)

“Having allowed the mind to return for some hundred times to the hour of birth, it should be encouraged to endeavour to penetrate beyond that period.”
- Aleister Crowley, Magick

“After twenty runs through birth, the patient experienced a recession of all somatics and ‘unconsciousness’ and aberrative content.” “Thus there was no inhibition about looking earlier than birth for what Dianetics had begun to call basic-basic.”
- L Ron Hubbard, Dianetics

“Both Hubbard and Crowley are avowedly anti-psychiatry.”
- Jeff Jacobsen, “The Hubbard is Bare”

“Official psychoanalysis is therefore committed to upholding a fraud…Psychoanalysts have misinterpreted life, and announced the absurdity that every human being is essentially an anti-social, criminal, and insane animal.”
- Aleister Crowley, Magick

David,

You were right about my fumbling with the word “perfection”. What I was trying to say in a nutshell is that “As effective as Scientology is the closer the auditor is to standard auditing” the more effectively it works”. Again, I know it doesn’t always always work although mostly because of the effects of drugs especially psychotropics or physical defects but there are other reasons which is something that LRH worked on for quite sometime and it is actually still being worked on.

Very few people believe that LRH stole the concept of Scientology let alone the word from Dr. Nordenholz per the following
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientologie,_Wissenschaft_von_der_Beschaffenheit_und_der_Tauglichkeit_des_Wissens

I seem to recall at least one psychiatrist recommending LSD but I guess that would be like Anonymous not being guilty of vandalism, etc. because Anonymous doesn’t actually exist or whatever that argument was.

Frank G. makes an interesting point. His proposed amounts of vitamins is certainly not a handful and would give virtually no one diarhea. Your argument on the other hand would be like comparing apples to belladonna berries. You made statements that LRH recommended 5000 mg of Niacin which would cause liver damage and also stated too many vitamins daily would be bad for you. First of all LRH recommended a gradual increase of niacin starting at 100mg balanced with other vitamins only during the purification rundown. He separately recommended 200mg of niacin along with other vitamins as a daily regimen. Regarding the idea of taking a handful of vitamins as being too much of a good thing, we should first clarify what a handful would be. Secondly, there is a lot of controversy as pointed in subsequent comments to yours as to just how much is too much. If one were to take a large quantities of mostly just one vitamin there will be problems but when a combination of vitamins are balanced and taken daily but appropriately at appropriate times a much larger quantity is beneficial. Yes there are limits to vitamins being a good thing but its much higher than you apparently think. Also, as it happens I was on the purification rundown and consumed 5000mg of Niacin daily along with a handful of vitamins for at least a month during which I was quite healthy and since then I have had a thorough checkup on my liver with blood tests and ultrasound and according to those I have a very healthy liver.

I learned a little more about psychiatry from a friend who is completing a BS in psychiatry. Apparently now psychiatry refers to Freud as pseudo-psychology and psychiatry is now about biopsychology, psychobiology and neuroscience. All I have to say about it is that even Freud took his theories in the wrong direction but somehow LRH picked up the pieces and made it work which he then further developed and Scientology followed from that and based on personal experience with myself and others it works.

Check out the latest psychiatry news regarding overdiagnosis of bipolar disorder being discussed at the next APA convention http://www.furiousseasons.com/archives/2008/05/study_bipolar_disorder_overdiagnosed.html

SUOMYNONA,

Your argument about black magic is illogical and black magick is basically guilt by association and is not a part of Scientology.

Stephen, Frank, Cara and Curio!!

Quick, get your ASSIST handbook, get on a plane and go help the Myanmar cyclone victims!!

No.. No.. No.. Don’t take water, food, clothes or medical supplies!! They don’t need that. They need LRH TECH!!

Remember you are the only ones that can help. You are the authorities on the mind. LRH ASSISTS can help much more than food, water and medicines.

Now go and LRH speed.

How is the argument regarding black magic illogical?

LRH studied w/ Aliester Crowley in 1945. His own son is quoted above saying “that he was Crowley’s successor”

If you read the teaching of both Aliester Crowley and L Ron Hubbard, they teach and believe the same things.

“The whole and sole object of all true magickal training is to become free from every kind of limitation.”
- Aleister Crowley, Magick in Theory and Practice

“Our whole activity tends to make an individual completely independent of any limitation.”
- L. Ron Hubbard, Philadelphia Doctorate Course lecture (December, 1952)

Scientology’s symbols and the Satanic
The “S and double triangle” motif of Scientology’s main symbol probably derives from the black magic use of the snake symbol (the “wise serpent” or Satan) combined with a deconstruction into two triangles of the Star of David (rather like the reverse ritual of hanging the Christian cross upside down to signify devil worship). This symbol – the magical hexagram – was used by Hubbard and Parsons during their attempts at incarnating the Antichrist in human form.

The RTC (a main Scientology corporation) symbol contains the Dianetics triangle, which is a common magical symbol, representing the door of the Cabala, the letter Daleth. Hubbard indeed assigned it to the Greek equivalent of Daleth, Delta. The triangle on its base is also the symbol of Set, the Egyptian god called by some “the destroyer of man”, the male equivalent of Babalon. Indeed Crowley equates Set with Satan. Hubbard also used the “Daleth” triangle of the Egyptian destroyer-god Set as the Dianetic symbol.

Hubbard copied the back of Crowley’s Tarot-cards, a distinctively marked cross, which he used for his main Scientology church cross and symbol.

The Sea Organization symbol of Scientology’s elite paramilitary division is also interesting. The five pointed star, or pentacle is the most commonly known symbol of magical power. It is held between two thirteen-leaved laurels.

The theta symbol used by Scientology is the central symbol of Crowley’s Ordo Templi Orientis, where it denotes “Thelma” or the will. Perhaps Hubbard’s “thetan” is pronounced to match with a lisped “Satan”? He was, after all, wry in his humor and such a subtle perverse twist and deceit of lower initiates would be entirely congruent with classical Satanism.

Crowley’s order – the OTO – had a common origin with the Thule group to which several members of the Nazi hierarchy belonged (including deputy party chairman Rudolph Hess). The sig rune used by the Nazis – appears on the Scientology International Management Organization’s symbol – a red square enclosing a white disc and set off by four lightning flashes or sig runes. The swastika of the Nazi flag has been replaced by the Scientology “S and double triangle”. The symbol of the Religious Technology Center is surrounded by sig runes. The sig rune is otherwise peculiar to the Nazis.

L. Ron, junior, was sure that the teachings of the pre-Nazi Germanen Orden and the Thule secret societies had passed directly to his father by courier. No explanation is given for using these sig runes by Scientology. At the time that both of these symbols were introduced, Hubbard also created the International Finance Police, headed by the International Finance Dictator. An significant choice of words.

I repeat:

Hubbard copied the back of Crowley’s Tarot-cards, a distinctively marked cross, which he used for his main Scientology church cross and symbol.

So what is Anonymous doing about Myanmar!

Wow JohnnyD, what a great come back!! You are obviously showing us your advanced Scientology training. I’m a bit rusty, but let’s see if I can respond.

Anonymous is not a religious organization. It’s an independant effort by internet users around the globe to bring light to the lies and crimes of the Church of Scientology.

None-the-less… Google Catholic and Myanmar and you’ll get several hits of what a REAL religion is doing for these people including:

The archbishop of Yangon, a city devastated by the cyclone, reports that he will use diocesan funds to buy and distribute food, medicine, and tents among the survivors. A special committee has been created to provide essential aid to 60,000 families. Help also from the Churches of India and Thailand.

The Catholic Church in Myanmar says that the immediate needs for people are medical help, food, water and shelter following the devastation caused by Cyclone Nagris.

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) – Pope Benedict urged international donors on Tuesday to provide generous and effective aid to help Myanmar deal with the death and destruction caused by a cyclone.

Amazing huh, food, water and shelter… Hummm.. I think we’re missing one thing.

LRH TECH!! Yes.. That’s it.. Only LRH TECH can REALLY help…

Quick call David Miscavige and have him send out a press release stating that Scientologists from around the world will be there shortly to apply LRH ASSISTS, build missions and offer auditing at reduced rates for all new members.

Small print: Discounts available to those signing a 2.5 or 5 year contract and do not apply to current members.

Just what they need, because as we all know.. Scientologists are the only ones that can help.

Ahh… It feels good to be right.

Stephen Paul Reid qoute: “Beleive it or not, one side of this argument is completely true, and the other side is just rantings from weird people. It must be difficult for an observer to figure this out. Kind of like the centuries old discussions of whether the earth was round or flat. There were wild accusations coming from the flat side that just couldn’t be discarded until someone could observe the truth for themselves. Be adventurous. Take a trip on a ship to a faraway place and find out for yourself.”

Try this on Stephen.

Anonymous knows the world is round. In this thread we have supplied you with ton’s of reference material supporting our claims. We’ve even given you satellite imagery proving the world is round and you always try and respond with something retarded like “psychiatrist blah this” or “big pharma that”.

Its very clear if you read the thread, where the “rantings from weird people” are coming from. I think anyone reading this thread who isn’t brainwashed by the cult already can see the truth. The world is now watching your shenanigans more then ever before. Get out while you still can.

I think I’ll stay out here in the deep blue sea where the skies are calm and the future looks peaceful. It’s easier to help people from here.

Stephen,

I see that your TRs didn’t make a zombie out of you and that your humor wasn’t removed along with all your engrams.

Good job.

Wasamacallit?

I used to be part of the anonymous (for a few weeks) and participated in a couple of actions outside one of their places. This seemed as the sensible thing to do as there seemed to be overwhelming evidence (almost all on the Internet)on their abuses.
Then I took it up with my dad. And he, while not a Scientology supporter directly, told me about a friend of his. This friend had been one of the Ground 0 firefighters back in 2001 when the attack happened. Because of the poisons and harmful debris he was exposed to while working on the site for two months his health had deteriorated over five years after the exposure: he had bad coughs, constant nausea, killing headaches, couldn’t sleep, couldn’t digest food properly and much more, and these symptoms were ever worsening. He had visited a slew of docs and “experts” and was on a cocktail of medications 24-7, which had side effects and drugs prescribed to handle these side effects and it was all getting worse and worse. Then he had taken the NY detox program as the last resort and this actually handled all of his problems. He is now healthy, no medications, eats and sleeps well, has a good life etc.
The NY detox program is run by scientologists and based on the work of Ron Hubbard. This made me think that we are maybe giving the scientologists too much of a hard time. They have some good stuff. And although I don’t agree with them on all things and am still weary about them it seems to me that not all written about them is true.
I quit the Anon after this as I don’t want to protest a good thing. Anybody has of course his own choice to make on it.

Quote by L Ron Hubbard JR in Penthouse, June 1983

Hubbard: it’s very simple. Scientology has always had a “fair-game doctrine”–a policy of doing absolutely anything to stop an investigation or publication of a critical article in a magazine or newspaper. They have run some incredible operations on the several people who have tried to write books about Scientology. It was almost like a terror campaign. First they’d try throwing every possible lawsuit at the reporter or newspaper. We had a team of attorneys to do just that. The goal was to destroy the enemy. So the solution was always to attack, full-bore, with every possible resource, from every angle, instantaneously it can certainly be overwhelming. A guy would get slapped with twenty-seven lawsuits, and our lawyers would start depositioning absolutely anybody who ever knew the man, digging up dirt while at the same time putting together an operation that would get him into further trouble. I know of one case, concerning Paulette Cooper, who wrote a book called The Scandal of Scientology, in which they spent almost $500.000 trying to destroy her.

****Read the whole article here: http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/scien240.html

I really like your point of view. When i started researching the scientology organisation, it was important for me to know something is true before I believe it. I then listened to a bunch of anti-scientology videoes and so on, and I needed to find out myself. I went to the a scientology organisation and got their side, and one of the most blowing things I heard was: “you should never believe in something someone says before you actually experience it to be true”. This is very important because if you actually listen to what they say to you, you will hear certain things over and over again: “Read a book and tell me what you think”. And thats what I did, and it was amazing how much I actually agreed with.
Okey so another thing I wanted to mention was that some people say that they have been haunted by scientologists and been disconnected from their families and so on. I took the PTS/SP course they have, and it tells you to either HANDLE or DISCONNECT from people that supresses you. For me it absolutely makes perfect sense; just because you have a parent, doesnt mean you have to put up with supression and/or even psysical abuse. Think about it, did you ever have a friend that just made you feel like crap? This after you tried to tell him that he’s treating you badly, and he still continues to treat you like crap? You most obviously disconnected from him and realized you were off much better than keeping up with his crap. This is a good solution, some people are supressive and you do not need them in your life, thats my personal opinion and it has definatly worked for me.
After studying scientology I realize that I am more focused and have a lot more energy that I had before. People communicate better with me, because they understand me better after learning how to improve communication etc. The scientologists have helped me a lot, and I’ve approved every change that it has done to me as a person.
Now, whats important to say is that not every scientologist is following what hubbard wanted. Some scientologists just worship Mr Hubbard for everything he says and doesnt know the other side. I was very critical at the beginning and I had to search around to other scientologists before I found someone who actually had some insight on critical point of views. Some scientologists are totally uncritical to what comes from hubbard and totally critical to everything that disagrees with him. I found that to be wrong, and I still do, but I can’t spesify clearly enough how important for me it was so find people who could give me the objective perspective on things.

It really made things feel right, and I do have a lot of positive outcomes from studying scientology, and certain things I know: Scientologists DO want me to find out for my self what is real to me, they give me what Hubbard said and its up to me to find out if its true or not, so I just wanted to say: Find out for yourself, it’s a lot of good research done by Hubbard that helped me and is still helping me in my life, and don’t believe someone just because they’ve been in scientology for 20 years, it’s does NOT mean they have a full perspective on what scientology is, it can mean that they have misunderstood words or essensial content.

To go back on topic… if you read books from the major religions you will find a lot of strange data. Please don’t belive me just open a book and ask yourself: “does this make any sense?”.
Try to read a Scientology book like “The Scientology handbook” and then decide for yourself if the data are valid or not.
If you like the knowledge Scientology offers, study it. If it doesn’t answer the questions you have follow something else… and leave Scientology alone.
To understandy why Scientology is using the legal system follow my example by comparing Scientology to a teacher that delivers courses on a subject “X”.
He delivers this course, the majority of the people like it and they let other people know about this course.
Now some people, lets say 2 out of 100 don’t like this teacher and they attack him legally to grab the money that he gained with all his teachings.
He continues teaching and expanding and he handles these 2 guys with the legal system.
Now these two guys object him using the legal system and spread around the information that this teacher is not a teacher and that they are poor victims of him… while they started to attack him and while the number of students of that teacher grew and grew.
These two suppressive guys changed the way of attacking this teacher, they wrote to the media, they lied left and right, they put masks on, they say that they “were Scientologists”, they said a lot of things but the real story is that they were just suppressive persons and they just attack groups that are positive and try to help, and they ally themselves with antisocial groups.
That is the story.
….. what’s the end of it?… the good always wins!

A wonderful article…. In my life, I have never seen a man be so selfless in helping others around him to get along and get working. I feel good that there are people like you too. Thanks for this great weblog of yours. Its surely going to get me to go to higher places!

Mr. Peter Chubb,

You are a BAFFOON! Obviously you are a supporter of this cult that is NOT a religion! And beyond that you know absolutely NOTHING about the true christian faith, Catholicism. You should NEVER write on such subjects again because all you do is show your COMPLETE lack of any intelligence! This was the most poorly written article i have EVER seen in my God-given life! My 6 year old Catholic son could write better than you with his eyes closed while waiting on God to move the pen for him! I think everybody that has read your pathetic attempt at Christian bashing has lost a few levels of intelligence just from being introduced to your mindless dribble!!